"Personal" question(s) to John Jarrold

[Ian Whates]

Just to let everyone know that I'll be moving house next Tuesday/Wednesday (to Lincoln) and I''ll probably be offline for ten days.

Cheers!

JJ

Good luck, John. Hope the move goes more smoothly than the last one, which wasn't all that long ago, as I recall... You must be a glutton for punishment!

 

[Birol]

Have fun. Hope you like the new place.

 

[John Jarrold]

Good luck, John. Hope the move goes more smoothly than the last one, which wasn't all that long ago, as I recall... You must be a glutton for punishment!

Yes, after the horrors of two moves in six weeks last autumn, I've found a pleasant house on a quiet street and I NEVER WANT TO MOVE AGAIN...!

 

[Havlen]

Here's another question I've been wondering about. Does a young adult novel need young adult characters to be viable? For example, if a book is written with a theme and sense of humor that would appeal to young adults, could it be pitched to publishers/agents as a ya novel?

And, if so, would it be better to pitch it as a ya novel to ya agents and a fantasy novel to fantasy agents, or pitch it as a novel that could appeal to ya and adult fantasy? (In other words, should you stick with a specific genre in your pitch, or pitch it as something that could be either).

 

[John Jarrold]

Most YA novels have teenage protagonists. But so do some adult fantasy novels - Tad Williams' MEMORY, SORROW AND THORN trilogy is just one example. After all, the coming-of-age hero/heroine is an often-used trope of the genre. Make your mind up how you perceive the book and pitch it to those agents. They'll soon tell you if it's more suited to the other genre and some of them will deal with both, of course.

 

[John Jarrold]

Also what is considered a best seller, how many books?, 100,000 or 500,000.

Regards Gary

There is no specifc number that says 'bestseller'. If you have a look at the Sunday Times Paperback Top 10 bestseller list, you'll see a range of sales figures...

 

[Havlen]

Most YA novels have teenage protagonists. But so do some adult fantasy novels - Tad Williams' MEMORY, SORROW AND THORN trilogy is just one example. After all, the coming-of-age hero/heroine is an often-used trope of the genre. Make your mind up how you perceive the book and pitch it to those agents. They'll soon tell you if it's more suited to the other genre and some of them will deal with both, of course.

I don't perceive it as a YA, but that is because I don't perceive age having anything to do with it. It is written to appeal to a certain sense of humor. I didn't think of it as perhaps being suited for YA until after it was written. I do think the general silliness employed is something that (sadly) some people lose as they age. And I don't really care if it is classified as YA or fantasy.

But I gather from your response that you think it is wise to bill it as a single genre when querying agents. I've been doing that by pitching it as fantasy to those who mainly deal with fantasy, and pitching it as YA to those that mainly deal with YA. (Though I try to stick with agents that deal with either Fantasy or both Fantasy and YA -- I have other stuff that is not YA -- including one orphan 'coming of age' book that is definitely not YA.)

 

[John Jarrold]

Agents expect writers to understand their market - it isn't just a matter of saying 'I've written a good book, where do you think it fits?' The author's job in commercial, mass-market publishing is to be aware of the parameters of the market within which they are writing, today! From what you say, I would tend to pitch it as fantasy - agents will tell you soon enough if they consider it's 'too YA' for their lists...

 

[lin robinson]

That "perception of YA" is bothering me, too. I get a lot of different messages about it, and people say.."Oh, don't underestimate it, lots of books do such and such."

One thing I am very confident of is that teen agers and college age readers really like hearing about sex, drugs, violence, and nasty language. But I get the impression that agents and publisher might not want to give it to them. But my impression is very, very sketchy.

I post something from my current WIP that I think would appeal to a lot of people from different fandoms, from Star Wars to Kevin Smith, but have no idea if anybody would take it seriously as far as representation or publication.

http://www.chronicles-network.com/forum/39401-from-sky-seeds.html

 

[John Jarrold]

To some degree, it's not what YA readers want, Lin, it's what YA bookstores and sections, and bookclubs, are willing to stock (I suspect a threat of legal action can worry them), and thus what publishers who have to make their money from selling to those stores and clubs are willing to take on. They tend sometimes to shy away from adult themes in YA fantasy - which sends many readers to the adult fantasy section, of course. I couldn't see any reason to read books 'for children' after I was about eleven, personally...so anyone looking at violent sex and VERY twisted personalities in a fantasy novel is not likely to get it taken on by a YA publisher...

 

[lin robinson]

That makes sense. It would probably be better to publish such stuff with stickers prohbiting sales to minors and let them figure out ways to get their hands on it, huh?

So maybe what I'm really wondering here is what the chances are for a book where most of the characters are in their late teens. They will eventually grow up, but meanwhile they are student-aged locos romping around the universe, hooking up, and trying to come to grips with some pretty untenable parents.

Is this going to be unpalatable for adults? And thus fall between two stools?

 

[scalem X]

I think, John, that Lin wants names of books that are for adult markets, but who feature young/teenage characters and maybe themes. If you could give some, then the problem is solved, if not, well then Lin will know what not to do.

 

[John Jarrold]

Lin, no problem with late-teen characters in adult fantasy novels. Look at Guy Gavriel Kay's FIONAVAR TAPESTRY novels - they are published as adult novels.

 

[John Jarrold]

In terms of a snapshot of the fantasy genre, in both adult and YA publishing, I'll suggest three books on each side. There are MANY others I could mention, but this is where personal market research comes in. Any new author needs to check out bookshops, ask questions, see what is selling by recent authors in the area they want to write.

Okay. Adult fantasy: A GAME OF THRONES BY GEORGE R R MARTIN; THE LIES OF LOCKE LAMORA BY SCOTT LYNCH; PERDIDO STREET STATION BY CHINA MIEVILLE.

YA fantasy: SABRIEL BY GARTH NIX; MORTAL ENGINES BY PHILIP REEVE; THE AMULET OF SAMARKAND BY JONATHAN STROUD.

That gives an idea of the breadth in each market, and the level of sophistication in the genre. Extremely good, character- and story-led writing. En avant, mes amis...

 

[Havlen]

I would certainly say that teenage characters in 'regular' fantasy is quite a popular theme. The Magician series by Feist, the Assassin series by Hobb, etc. Starting when they are young and progressing them to manhood as the series goes on is pretty standard stuff.

 

[Havlen]

Okay, one more question and I promise that's it for the week. (Author's note: For the purpose of this post, the week will be considered to end on Saturday at 11:59:59 PM Central Standard Time.)

Does publishing a book with a small press (without a valid distribution system) or electronic press reflect negatively on the author in the eyes of a prospective agent/editor as far as future work is concerned? In other words, would an author who was published through, say, Publish America, or had an e-book published, find it more difficult to sell an agent/editor on a future project? (Note: I'm not asking if it should be mentioned in a pitch -- if it is not considered a 'valid' publishing credit I don't think it should be mentioned at that stage -- but I wonder if going that route could hurt future books in the long run.)

I should add that I certainly believe in starting from the top and working your way down. But what about authors who couldn't sell themselves at the top? I've been emailing one author with a good agent who couldn't sell his book, so he decided to go with a smaller press. I understand where he is coming from -- he's not out to make money, he wasn't people to read what he wrote -- but could it hurt him for future sales of books?

 

[lin robinson]

Wow, actually I wasn't shopping for titles, just an idea of what gives. So I got both. Thanks to everybody.

 

[Erin99]

Does publishing a book with a small press (without a valid distribution system) or electronic press reflect negatively on the author in the eyes of a prospective agent/editor as far as future work is concerned? In other words, would an author who was published through, say, Publish America, or had an e-book published, find it more difficult to sell an agent/editor on a future project? (Note: I'm not asking if it should be mentioned in a pitch -- if it is not considered a 'valid' publishing credit I don't think it should be mentioned at that stage -- but I wonder if going that route could hurt future books in the long run.)

From what I've heard on Absolute Write, Havlen, agents and publishers are likely to look down on anyone mentioning Publish America as their publisher. I don't know whether you merely used that name as an example, but I thought I'd best let you know. PA will accept most writers who send in their manuscript, and most of the work they publish is badly-written, full of typos and editing mistakes, and will have to be self-advertised by the author. This, of course, will make any potential writer look unprofessional. As they say on AW, it's best not to have any publishing experience than listing scam artists -- whether agent or publisher -- as your previous experience.


I know that didn't fully answer your question, but I hope it helps a little!



Oh, and good luck with the move, John. I have an uncle who lives in Lincoln, and it's a lovely city. I've visited it a few times.

 

[Havlen]

Leisha, as I said in my question, I'm not asking about mentioning the publishers while pitching to an agent/editor. I'm asking about whether that history will affect whether or not they decline on a manuscript. (In other words, if Agent Z gets an ms. from an author then types that author's name into google and sees they had a book published with Publish America will a *reasonable* agent let that effect their decision.)

And, to be clear, I picked Publish America to use in the example specifically because of their reputation. Obviously, small presses range in variety from vanity to scam to legitimate-but-naive to legitimate-but-small.

 

[Triceratops]

Havlen, I find myself in this situation now. My agent passed on one of my first SF novels, explaining that it didn't rock his boat. He suggested rewrites and said that I was free to send it out myself. I did, and hooked up with a Canadian publisher that did small offset print runs (1,500), but they had very limited distribution in place. We both agreed that sales here would be primarily driven by the author, as so commonly happens with small press. They seemed legit and had a good backlist, Amazon and all that. I have other books that my agent is sending to the majors.

So, in answer to your question, I believe that a small publisher who has some type of footprint in the industry can be seen as a legitimate credit, of course. The problem arises when and if a major excepts one of my books and desires to examine my past publishing record. The area that they will most likely scrutinize will be overall sales. And that could be the most damaging factor of all. They might frown on the fact that I've sold hundreds instead of thousands of copies. On the other hand, large publishers are well aware of the limitations of small press and really don't hold that against the author. So in the long run, a legitimate small press sale might be seen as a stepping stone for a debut novelist. That's how my agent explained it to me.

It's when you get into subsidy, coop, and obvious vanity presses, where this would become a problem--publishers who are not known for real editing, original artwork and book store placement. I just turned down a contract from Blu Phe'ir publishing because they wanted production costs on the back-end of the deal--royalties would be paid to the publisher until costs were recouped. WATCH OUT FOR THESE STEALTH PUBLISHERS, AS WELL AS THE BLATANT SUBSIDY AND VANITY OPERATIONS. THE DEAL BREAKERS ARE HIDDEN IN THE WORDING OF THE CONTRACT ITSELF. STUDY, STUDY, STUDY, AND SEEK ADVICE FROM THE WATCHDOGS.

Our Yog, James McDonald over at Absolutewrite, has often told us that being published badly is worse than not being published at all. That, of course, is open to interpretation. What he means by that can also include small publishers who have made the "bad" list and have a less than stellar reputation. So it all does depend on who is taking you to print

Not answering for John here...just relaying some experience.

Tri

Chris Stevenson