"Personal" question(s) to John Jarrold

[John Jarrold]

Too broad. Every book varies. In paperback, if you sell 3000 copies on publication date, that's a failure, in the UK. It depends entirely on the expectations - and thus on how much was paid for the book.

 

[John Jarrold]

Selling 7000 paperbacks of a book of which you budgeted to sell 7000 paperbacks is fine. But if you budgeted 25,000 paperbacks, then it's obviously a disaster... I've paid £1500 for a debut novel, as a publisher, and £25,000 for another debut. You base the advance on your knowledge of the market, your gut reaction to the book and on discussions with your colleagues in Sales and Marketing regarding printruns and the editions you all feel work for a specific project (paperback original; hardback and paperback; hardback, trade paperback and mass-market paperback...). The expectations are obviously different in those two examples of advances paid above...again, there is no one template that works for every book. That should be imprinted on the brain of every new author. There is no 'absolute'...

 

[Scarfy]

Which brings everything nicely round to: Write for the enjoyment of it

And I do like telling stories, even if I'm not very good at it...

 

[John Jarrold]

Onwards!

 

[John Jarrold]

I'll confess right now that I've never heard of Brandon Sanderson! His website says he writing the last Wheel of Time book though, so that might be a boost for his own work.

By the way, what is considered good sales for a first time novelist? I know that's a rather broad question, but are we talking 3,000 - 7,000 copies?

His books have done well in the US, but that doesn't mean they would work in a big way commercially in the UK. They are different markets (not always, but some of the time). As a publisher I certainly turned down major US SF and Fantasy sellers over the years, because I couldn't see them working in the UK. So has every other genre editor in London. And the same is true in reverse, with US editors.

 

[Scarfy]

Gotcha. So US publications deals are quite a big deal then for us UK guys, then.

Would be interesting to try and find out what the magic ingredient is...

 

[John Jarrold]

Gotcha. So US publications deals are quite a big deal then for us UK guys, then.

Would be interesting to try and find out what the magic ingredient is...

As with everything else in writing and publishing fiction: there isn't one!

 

[Scarfy]

Luck?

 

[John Jarrold]

No, absolutely not! But you must have the right book at the right place at the right time. Which is why - as I've said before - new authors need to be aware of the areas of the market that are working commercially. It's basic intelligence and common sense, not rocket science. And it's also something that many authors discuss with their agents...

And of course it's also about your writing and how terrific it is. Two people could work for a year writing exactly the same story with the same characters and one will be taken on, while the other might be turned down in the first ten pages - because the second writer simply can't write fiction, can't tell a story wonderfully, can't make the characters live.

Anyone who does believe that getting published is really about luck first and foremost should spend ten pounds a week on the National Lottery and stop writing.

 

[Susan Boulton]

Elantris by Brandon Sanderson was published over here, or at least it was available through the Fantasy and SF book club. I think it was printed by BCA, they used to have their own print run of books, at least I seem to remember something like that. I thought the premise was good, but the book itself didn't quite work for me, towards the end it felt a bit like solving a rubik cube.

As to luck playing a part in getting an agent/publisher, it is more a case of hard work, being as stubborn as a mule, and studying the industry. Most of the time you feel you are hitting your head against a brick wall, then suddenly things begin to happen, sample chapters are requested, even full manuscripts. You might say it's luck, but after ten years of slogging at this I believe it is the result of hard work. Taking the time to get out there and study the market.

To be honest I learned more over three days at my first Eastercon than I had from a couple of years poking round the internet.

 

[John Jarrold]

The Book Club doesn't count as 'real' publishing - that really means one of the major companies (which in Fantasy terms in Britain mostly means Orbit, Gollancz, HarperCollins Voyager, Bantam, Tor UK or Solaris). BCA are seen as completely separate, in that you have to be a member of the club, the book isn't avilable on the shelves at WHS, Waterstones, etc.

 

[Susan Boulton]

That's interesting, John. Do BCA have a lot of "clout" in the industry, it seems as if all the major fantasy authors have editions published by them. Is it seen as a blessing or a curse? Just curious.

 

[John Jarrold]

It's good to get a deal with BCA for a UK publisher, because it's extra publicity and coverage for the book. But it doesn't make the author much money, in 99% of cases. Seeing Elantris there and nowhere else in the UK means that every major UK publisher of fantasy turned it down and the overseas rights department of Tor US did a deal with BCA.

Yes, they have ongoing deals with major fantasy and SF writers, and it's a few bob more in the bank account and another edition, another audience, but it isn't make or break. Of course, every new novelist who gets a book club deal is delighted, and quite rightly!

 

[David Gullen]

And of course it's also about your writing and how terrific it is. Two people could work for a year writing exactly the same story with the same characters and one will be taken on, while the other might be turned down in the first ten pages - because the second writer simply can't write fiction, can't tell a story wonderfully, can't make the characters live.

Or simply that their writing just doesn't resonate with that with that individual and you just have to try again. I've recently had a rejection from Agent Y who said the book was good but we had 'different sensibilities' and recommended I send it on to Agent Z.

Being in a writing group will help you find out if your writing is good. Being persistent will hopefully let you found someone who does like your good writing!

 

[John Jarrold]

But all too often it's what I said, sadly...which is why most books are turned down by every publisher and agent. But of course you're right 1 or 2% of the time (as I've said before, over fifteen years working as a publisher, I took on books that other editors turned down and vice versa - but the vast majority of books submitted are turned down by everyone). And every author should try more than one agent or publisher, because of that. As Susan said earlier in the thread, it's about hard work, self-belief and keeping your head down and not being discouraged or blaming a reason other than the fact that what you're writing doesn't fit the market or simply isn't good enough yet.

 

[Scarfy]

it's about hard work, self-belief and keeping your head down and not being discouraged or blaming a reason other than the fact that what you're writing doesn't fit the market or simply isn't good enough yet.

That needs framing.

 

[The Alamo Avenger]

In my ongoing search for agents, I recently came across one that had this posted in their submission guidelines:

Although the agency generally uses no formal written contract with its clients, preferring to develop a relationship based on mutual trust and loyalty, contracts are available for clients who request them.

No formal written contract???
John, have you ever heard of such a thing? The agent is listed in a Writer's Market guide available here in the US, so I'm pretty sure they are a legit agency. If I did get an offer from them, I would definitely want a contract, but the fact that they would even consider entering into an agreement without one just seems pretty sketchy to me.

 

[Susan Boulton]

Not John , but I have. Some authors and agents have for years worked together with just a handshake to seal the deal. Others have a bolt and braces contract.

The important thing I believe is trust between the two parties, once that is lost in any industry then things go to the dogs, contract or no.

 

[John Jarrold]

In my ongoing search for agents, I recently came across one that had this posted in their submission guidelines:

No formal written contract???
John, have you ever heard of such a thing? The agent is listed in a Writer's Market guide available here in the US, so I'm pretty sure they are a legit agency. If I did get an offer from them, I would definitely want a contract, but the fact that they would even consider entering into an agreement without one just seems pretty sketchy to me.

As Susan says, some agents who have worked with clients for years and know them well have handshake agreements - but I would never do that, although I've known some of my clients for twenty years. I think formalising any business relationship is sensible...on a professional basis, and in case of sudden death apart from anything else.

 

[Splorg]

Hi John,

Thanks very much for some excellent information. This is a good thread.

I have a couple of questions about the mechanics of approaching an agent, if you would be so kind:

1) I've read (on this thread, in fact) you should avoid addressing a query 'Dear Sir or Madam.' What do you do if the agency wants you to send queries to the Submissions Department, or some similar animal?

2) I've read a lot of stuff about query letters in America, and how you need hooks and so forth. Agencies in this country seem to want actual manuscript chapters, plus a synopsis and a cover letter.

Does my cover letter need to have an American-style story hook? Or can it just be a business letter giving the agency the information it needs: word count, genre, etc?

(I'd rather avoid writing a hook-style query letter. The synopsis was hard enough.)