Does Self Publishing help or hinder?

[Andrew Borg]

have you not thought about small print publishers outside of australia? with the internet as it is, there is no reason you have to have an agent, or just stick with those in your country. my small print publisher is american.

but, of course, the problem with that is, they're not available neccessarily in your own country. im lucky that mine has now got uk distrubution, so i can do book signing events and so on, and sell copies to my friends. otherwise i'd have been unable to with the shipping cost from the us. but for me, small print was the way to go. i don't think i could ever afford pod, and i still have my issues with it, to some extent. i guess im insecure and need convincing by someone else, a publisher, that the novel is good enough

Hi,

I did think about looking overseas, but in the end I decided that even if I was successful in finding a publisher, I would still have problems with regard to "local" distribution. The import costs to get my novel into this country may have been a real factor, and to be honest I had no idea where to start looking overseas! Additionally, and mainly due to a "lack of self-confidence", I really didn't want to continue to search for someone who was interested in my work, only to receive rejections months later. I only decided to pursue POD publishing when I received comments from people in online forums, etc, who I must admit I didn't personally know, urging me to seek publication.

Given that my primary aim was always to get the book published for my children (it was written for them), I decided that POD publishing provided a better option than self-publishing. The costs were much less ($A350) and the company took care of all the ISBN registrations, advertising in book buyer guides and SFF magazines, and everything else that I would have had to pay for anyway, as well as copies of the book.

While the contract is in place for two years, I still retain all rights to seek mainstream publishing, etc. So if I do decide to continue to pursue that course of action, then it remains a valid option.

cheers,

Andrew

 

[Andrew Borg]

Might I ask which Oz POD publisher you used? Understand if you don't want to say.

Hi,

That's cool. I'm still trying to figure out what I can and can't say on this forum - I'm a newbie and don't want to be seen to be self promoting/advertising! But given that you asked, the publisher is Equilibrium Books.

cheers,

Andrew

 

[Crisspin]

I think it is important to differentiate between self-publishing and vanity press.

Self-publishing can be a viable way to get work out into the public eye, but it requires significantly more effort and money for such a work to be succesful. The authors who have self-published often have either significant name recognition through small-press or have invested their own money in promoting their material. Self-publishing is where you are responsible for every aspect of the books publication, from editing, typecase and cover to printing, distribution and promotion.

Vanity Press on the other hand is a place where you simply pay a fee and they print your book. These companies are most often shunned by any bookstore. Editors will also look down on any writer who has published through a Vanity Press, viewing that writer as an amateur.

From Scott Edelstien's 100 Things Every Writer Needs to Know he suggests "Like bookstore owners, editors know which presses do vanity publishing. If they learn that you've published a book with a vanity house, they're not only not going to be impressed, they'll probably consider you a naive, self-indulgent rube. (So if you've already published a book with a vanity press, don't tell anyone in the media)."

 

[Carolyn Hill]

So perceived effort counts in a self-published author's favor and against an author who's gone with a vanity-press? How protestant.

But that's cool, because it means I'm not automatically sunk for self-publishing with Lulu.com .

 

[MJRevell]

I have just been investigating one self-publishing site, and it sounds very good. From what they say, it is entirely free: they make their money through a small royalty on each sale.

My question, therefore, if you can get your book published by such a site for free, and can make a nice royalty from each sale... why is this method frowned upon? Excuse my ignorance - but surely the royalties are greater doing this than traditional print? And further, if you market it well, is it not possible to make a fair profit? It may be a 'hobby', but in the end, if it is free, you're not losing money.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

Is it POD? Because otherwise I don't see how it could be self-publishing and free. Someone has to pay for the paper and ink, and if not you then it would be the publishing house -- therefore not really self-published.

If it's POD, well, there are advantages and disadvantages to that. People aren't going to be able to go into a bookstore and find your book sitting there on the shelf, which cuts down on your sales right there.

Also, a lot of people get into self-publishing and POD thinking that marketing is going to be relatively easy. This is not true. Successful self-published authors work very, very hard at promoting their books. If you don't have the time, the energy, or the talent to turn yourself into a super-salesperson, there is no way you are going to make a fair profit.

 

[Brian G Turner]

So perceived effort counts in a self-published author's favor and against an author who's gone with a vanity-press? How protestant.

To be honest, I think sales are the key issue - no matter what the format chosen, if you can sell a ton of books, you've proved your commercial worth.

 

[Brian G Turner]

My question, therefore, if you can get your book published by such a site for free, and can make a nice royalty from each sale... why is this method frowned upon? Excuse my ignorance - but surely the royalties are greater doing this than traditional print? And further, if you market it well, is it not possible to make a fair profit? It may be a 'hobby', but in the end, if it is free, you're not losing money.

Royalties may be greater - but usually there's no marketing dept to promote your work in national markets.

So the higher royalty is offset by a much lower volume of sales.

 

[LauraJUnderwood]

Depends on which "free" publisher you're talking about. Lulu.com doesn't charge a penny, lets you set the amount of royalty you want per book. They use PoD technology to print the books. You can order your own books for cost of printing and the more you order, the bigger your discount.

Lulu offers different options. The bottom line costs you nothing. But if you want an ISBN so you can get listed by Ingrams, the cost goes up to around $135.00.

SFWA used Lulu to publish ATLANTA NIGHTS, which was the novel we used to sting a certain "vanity press" pretending to be a legitimate publisher. (And yes, I will confess, I am 1/40th of Travis Tea, author of said ATLANTA NIGHTS, the book so bad it could Poke Out The Eye Of Argon any day...).

However, if you are talking about PublishAmerica (or its British counterpart) run away as fast as you can. Too much Bad Mojo there. They give you $1.00 as an advance, then convince you to purchase your own books at a pitiful discount. They overcharge the cover price, never get your books into bookstores, and in general, are just Not Worth Your Time.

Can self-publishing hurt your career? It just depends. A good author will find a market for their work if they are patient and persistent.

I have a friend, Jana Oliver, who self-published her first trilogy, and has since sold a novel (SOJOURN described as time travel, werewolves and Jack the Ripper) to a small press, and Meisha Merlin is looking at reprinting her early self-published work.

Vanity can most certainly hurt your career because of the stigma attached to it.

But if you are willing to go the whole nine yards, make sure your work is edited well, and have the wherewithal to do all the PR and the pushing, yes, you can get somewhere self publishing.

But remember, Editors Have A Purpose.

As pretty as some of us think we can write, we can always used a little editorial advice. ;-)

Laura J. Underwood
Author of DRAGON'S TONGUE

 

[Carolyn Hill]

But remember, Editors Have A Purpose.

As pretty as some of us think we can write, we can always use a little editorial advice. ;-)

Too true, Laura. The lack of an in-house editor is what I'm most nervous about in self-publishing one of my novels. Even though the novel has been workshopped by several different groups, and even though I've gone over it applying what I've learned as a writing teacher and as a copyeditor, I know, absolutely, in my heart of hearts, that an in-house editor would be invaluable.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

Even though the novel has been workshopped by several different groups

The first time I saw this I was reading too fast, and it registered as "worshipped." I thought ... well, yes, we liked the book, but absolute adoration ...?

It's hard even for experienced copy-editors to spot their own errors, isn't it?
An informed second (or third) opinion is always valuable.

At all the publishing houses I've worked with, there was the editor and the copy-editor to go over the manuscript, then the author (me), the editor, a professional proofreader, and maybe other people that I didn't even know about, to look over the typeset galleys. Even then, errors crept in and went unnoticed.

 

[Carolyn Hill]

It's hard even for experienced copy-editors to spot their own errors, isn't it? An informed second (or third) opinion is always valuable.

At all the publishing houses I've worked with, there was the editor and the copy-editor to go over the manuscript, then the author (me), the editor, a professional proofreader, and maybe other people that I didn't even know about, to look over the typeset galleys. Even then, errors crept in and went unnoticed.

Yep. That's what's giving me willies!

 

[LauraJUnderwood]

Yeah, even with the best copyeditors and proof readers and editors, you know there has to be a mistake in there somewhere.

Laura J. Underwood
Author of DRAGON'S TONGUE

 

[Mark Robson]

The question you should ask yourself is, 'Are there going to be so many errors in this manuscript that they will put the reader off from reading my work again?' In your case, Brown Rat, I doubt this very much. I've read quite a few self published books now, and the majority of those that I've read have clearly not been edited by a professional (some were downright awful!) - my Darkweaver quartet suffers from this too. Not because there are loads of typos in my case, (though I will admit there are still one or two lurking) but my use of language and the style in which I'd written it would have benefited hugely from an experienced eye.

Despite all its faults, The Darkweaver Legacy remains popular and continues to sell well. If you are looking to shake the literary world with your first novel, then OK, perhaps it is a little more important, but if you are looking to establish a readership, then I would say that the majority of readers out there are looking for a good story. I shouldn't get too het up about the odd typo creeping through. I noticed one in the last Harry Potter book, and rarely read a novel these days without noticing something that has slipped through the net.

 

[LauraJUnderwood]

If you are looking to shake the literary world with your first novel, then OK, perhaps it is a little more important, but if you are looking to establish a readership, then I would say that the majority of readers out there are looking for a good story. I shouldn't get too het up about the odd typo creeping through. I noticed one in the last Harry Potter book, and rarely read a novel these days without noticing something that has slipped through the net.

As a librarian, I constantly hear, "I would have liked this book much better if there hadn't been so many typos making it impossible to read."

But I agree that a good story will gain a readership.

Laura J. Underwood
Author of DRAGON'S TONGUE

 

[Mark Robson]

As a librarian, I constantly hear, "I would have liked this book much better if there hadn't been so many typos making it impossible to read."

But I agree that a good story will gain a readership.

Laura J. Underwood
Author of DRAGON'S TONGUE

I totally agree with you, Laura. There is a threshold above which typos become an annoyance - one person's threshold is higher than another. To some people finding a typo in a book will ruin the experience of owning that title (I find this a bit extreme, but they are out there - I've met them.) Personally, I find it appalling when I come across supposedly professionally edited books that have significantly more typos littering the pages than the handful that still lurk spread through my four self published books. In one case I read a book where there were mistakes on virtually every page, which is unforgiveable for a major publisher. In self published books, sadly this is all too common. However, I cannot imagine for one second that Brown Rat would ever release something in that state.

The great thing about POD is that you can gradually take out any odd ones that you find. In my case I didn't use POD. I went for relatively large print runs on a traditional press, so I was forced to live with them for longer before I invested in new plates (which at about $60/eight page plate is an expensive mistake!). I did invest in a completely new set of plates on print run number 3, (now on run number 8) when I type-set the whole book again, taking out the vast majority of little errors and glitches. The problem is that my writing has sharpened up no end since that early work and I now want to go back and change all the English.

What I've been forced to accept is that my first book was the best I could do then. There comes a time when you have to let go and move on. I haven't had an email pointing out typos in nearly 5 years now (I did get the odd one or two to begin with), but I have had hundreds and hundreds of complimentary ones. The strength of the story clearly outweighs the odd typo, drawing the readers on to read the subsequent books - which is the ultimate goal, after all.

 

[LauraJUnderwood]

And sadly, a lot more typos are showing up in large press books.

It is as if they have cut out the copyeditors and the proofreaders.

Laura J. Underwood
Author of DRAGON'S TONGUE

 

[Carolyn Hill]

We've been talking mostly about typos and sentence-level errors, which are the province of copyeditors and proofreaders. But I'm also acutely aware that a self-publisher lacks an editor's advice about big-picture aspects of the novel.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

There are other people who can give you some of the same advice -- although without the same marketing savvy as editors. Sadly, a lot of self-published authors don't make use of those resources either. They'll show their books to a few friends or family members, and not avail themselves of some of the workshops and dedicated critique groups out there. Which is one reason that self-publishing lacks credibility in the eyes of so many readers.

However, I am sure, Carolyn, that your book will add luster to the form, rather than tarnish it.

 

[Mark Robson]

We've been talking mostly about typos and sentence-level errors, which are the province of copyeditors and proofreaders. But I'm also acutely aware that a self-publisher lacks an editor's advice about big-picture aspects of the novel.

True. I recently read a self published book called Rutland's Curse, which was generally well written, with less than the usual number of copyediting/proofreading omissions. Sadly the author, whilst excellent at writing about military action in Afghanistan in the 1890s, had tried to put in the obligatory romance in order that the hero could go off with the girl at the end. It totally failed, as he had no idea on how to build a romance at all. Not only that, but his resolution to the story lacked punch, and left me feeling cheated.

These things would certainly have been addressed by a good editor. I suppose that goes to show that an author does well to play to their strengths to begin with - at least until they have found their feet anyway.