Ser Duncan the Tall Living a Lie? [Possible Spoilers]

[Qhorin Halfhand]

The moral of the story is about as subtle as Sam at a buffet. I don't think anyone in the thread two years ago missed the point of the story. They were simply arguing about something completely different; specifically, who can make someone a knight in the Seven Kingdoms.

That's really not the feel I get from the OP.

 

[the smiling weirwood]

Whoah, I'm more interested in how we work out Brienne to be Dunk's descendant. He wouldn't have left any legitimate progeny, being in the Kingsguard, yes?

 

[Ghost of Harrenhal]

The moral of the story is about as subtle as Sam at a buffet. I don't think anyone in the thread two years ago missed the point of the story. They were simply arguing about something completely different; specifically, who can make someone a knight in the Seven Kingdoms.

Yeah, like Qhorin, I was referring more to the OP which seems to be about not realizing that Dunk wasn't actually knighted until rereading the story. I just posted commenting that I got it practically on the first page, and that I was surprised the OP didn't either because I thought it was essential to the story.

People weren't arguing about who can make a knight until later in the thread.

 

[viZion]

Looks like the OP is just saying he doesn't think Ser Duncan was never really knighted. He doesn't mention whether or not he gets the point of the story. I'd imagine he does since it's explained quite clearly by the armorer (forgot his name) when he and Dunk are walking to the battle. Again, the thread appears to be about something completely different than the actual point of the story.

I'm really focusing on what the guy who resurrected the thread said. He pointed out that no one got that the knight-who-isn't-a-knight acted more like a knight than the real knights. Yeah, we get that. Man, these are pointless semantics and I think I don't care anymore. However...

Smiling weirwood brings up an interesting line of discussion. Far more interesting than whether or not the OP understood the story. When exactly was Dunk made one of the Kingsguard? He could have had plenty of women before that starting with the mysterious Dornish puppeteer . Or can you not be in the Kingsguard if you already have children? Obviously, you can't be married but I'm sure bastards wouldn't count against a potential Kingsguard. In any case, my memory is a bit fuzzy about the rules of the Kingsguard.

 

[Chmee]

Changing subject slightly
In AFFC there is mention of a Ser Tallad the Tall
Any one know if there is any possible relation to Dunk?

 

[Charming Serpent]

U can have kids before u join , i think. If not, maybe Dunk never knew or just knocked up some bitty and just never knew.

 

[schpat]

I'm new to the forums so I've never come across this before. What do you mean that Dunc is not a knight?? This is possibly more farfetched than Tyrion being a Targaryn.

Dunc is too honourable and honest to lie about something like that. I mean I'd give it to you that he might be acting honourable and honest, but his actions speak louder than his words. He defends the puppet girl, and is willing to sacrifice himself to save Ser Brown Stink.

Also when he is trying to find someone to vouch for him at Ashford his disappointment and panic are too real for someone who just isn't succeeding in a lie.

I don't think GRRM ever intended for Dunc's knighthood to even be in question. The point is that the humblest of knights can be more knightly than the vast majority of high lords. Birth, wealth and power don't determine the quality of the man. However he does throw Balor Breakspear in there to show that the other side isn't all bad.

If it turns out that Dunc wasn't actually knighted by Ser Arlan I will be very surprised.

 

[Ghost of Harrenhal]

Looks like the OP is just saying he doesn't think Ser Duncan was never really knighted. He doesn't mention whether or not he gets the point of the story.

You're missing my point. I didn't say the OP said he got the story or not, I simply said he didn't know that Duncan wasn't a knight. I was surprised that he didn't know Duncan was a knight because I found it imperative to the story.

Also for schpat: Really? You think Duncan was knighted? I think that would take away quite a bit from the meaning of the story, for me anyway. Sure you could say Hedge Knights are truer knights than the sons of Great Lords because they look out for the smallfolk and come from a world where they see their hardship first hand, but I think it's more to do with the fact that an unknighted commoner can be as true and chivalrous a man as any knight, born high or low.

 

[viZion]

I interpreted the story the way schpat did. The question of whether or not Dunk was really knighted did come up briefly in my mind but I think I decided that he was telling the truth. I don't think it really matters one way or the other. Dunk still did a better job of following a knight's vows than the other more well-known knights. I like to think that Dunk would have reacted the same to Egg's pleas for help no matter who the person was who was being harrassed. In other words, for me, it was just a happy coincidence that the person he was saving was the girl he liked.

 

[Charming Serpent]

In the Hedge Knight Dunk is NOT, I repeat, NOT a knight. It specifically states how he is Ser Arlans squire and on the way to a tourney Arlan dies. He NEVER knights Dunk.

"A hedge knight, Ser Arlan of Pennytree, has died during the night. His squire, a large young man named Dunk, buries him and pays his last respects. After considering several options, Dunk decides to continue his journey to Ashford and compete in the tourney as a knight. He adopts Ser Arlan's armor as his own, as well as his equipment, three horses, and remaining monies"

"Without proof of his knighthood, however, he is nearly barred from competition until Prince Baelor Targaryen vouches for him"

"Angered by his cousin's treachery, Raymun begs to be knighted and fight in Steffon's place. Dunk hesitates, as the truth to his own knighthood is questionable, and knighting Raymun would also jeopardize his future as well"

That is in the Hedge knight. After that in the Sworn Sword everybody, including himself, believe he is a knight. Now Prince Baelor vouching for him might be able to make him a knight, but who knows. Just wanted to clarify about Dunk in the Hedge Knight though.

 

[Young stormlord]

Re: Ser Duncan the Tall and Brienne

Whoah, I'm more interested in how we work out Brienne to be Dunk's descendant. He wouldn't have left any legitimate progeny, being in the Kingsguard, yes?

Brienne is Dunk's granddaughter (or grand-granddaughter). How come? Let's start with her story development...

She starts as a mystery knight (though not really a knight), becomes part of Rainbow guard (Renly's version of kingsguard), someone of royal blood dies on her hands, becomes Lady Catelyn's sworn sword, becomes Arya and Sansa's sworn shield (they are both princesses), looks for them under the guise of hedge knight , then gains a squire (he followed her and was too pitifull to kill).

Dunks life trip is this: Hedge knight, "gains" a squire (follows him, while too skinny and pitifull for Dunk to kill him or send him away), death of royal person on his hands, really gaining a squire (and becoming prince's sworn shield in the process), becoming sworn sword for Ser Eustace, competing as a mystery knight (and losing in first tilt. He would have won if there was melee... and Brienne won the only melee she fought in), getting confirmed as Egg's sworn shield and joining the Kingsguard somewhere in the future..

Now, nothing of this isn't proof. Here's something that might be. When certain pretender offered Dunk place in his kingsguard, he replied like this.

"Only seven boys grow up to wear the white cloak, though. Would it please you to be one of them?"
"Me?" Dunk shrugged away the lordling's hand, which had begun to knead his shoulder. "It might. Or not." The knights of the Kingsguard served for life, and swore to take no wife and - 32 -
hold no lands. [FONT=Calibri,Calibri][FONT=Calibri,Calibri]I might find Tanselle again someday. Why shouldn't I have a wife, and sons? [/FONT][/FONT]"It makes no matter what I dream. Only a king can make a Kingsguard knight."

What if Dunk had daughters instead? Or not. What if he had sons? We never find out Dunks last name (he doesn't have one, btw. Growing up in Flea Bottom and all).
Davos didn't have one either, before Stannis made him a knight and gave him some land on one of his islands. Davos took the name Seaworth, because he gained his worth on the sea, by smugling the onions to certain lord/future king.

The name of Brienne's house is Tarth and her father is called Evenstar. The name of their castle is Evenfall. Seaworth, Tarth. Sea made Davos worthy of knighthood/lordship. Targaryens made Dunk worthy of knighthood, since he was their servant and sworn shield.
But that's thin connection at most. What is stronger one is this line from the Hedge Knight:

The spring rains had softened the ground, so Dunk had no trouble digging the grave. He chose a spot on the western slope of a low hill, for the old man had always lowed to watch the sunset.

The other name for sunset is evenfall, and it was when "sun was westering" when Dunk met Egg for the first time, when we get this lovely exchange:

"I have no need for squire." Dunk said.
"Every knight needs a squire." the boy said "You look as though you need the one the most."

... and later...

"I'm a good squire, but Daeron is not a very good knight."

Podrick Payne is a good squire too, but Tyrion is not a knight at all! And then there's Dunk's shield...

"The field should be the color of sunset. The old man liked sunsets."
...
"Yes, that would serve. An elm tree... but with a shooting star above."

Shooting star on the sunset sky= Evenstar?

Could be. And finally:

"But the old man, Ser Arlan, every day at evenfall he'd say: "I wonder what the morrow will bring."

Also, of all the Stormlords whom Davos Seaworth visited on the begining of ACOK, only Tarths agreed to meet him, albeit on midnight and in grove.

And there's also the blazon of house Tarth. It is quartered with yellow suns on rose and white crescents on azure. You could say it represents evening, since there are both suns and moons in there, with sunset and nightfall but there's more. The only other house that has yellow suns as their sigil is House Martell of Dorne and Tansell not-Too-Tall for Dunk is from Dorne...

*Karstarks have white beamy suns as their sigil, so they don't count.

 

[Young stormlord]

Trying to find your thoughts on my theory, so I'm bumping and ressurecting this thread. Sorry for the double post :blush:

 

[Needle]

Have to say, seems a solid theory to me. We don't get much of a history for Brienne and there always seems to be a bit of awe when people find out who she is that is never explained. This would explain it.

 

[Timba]

I agree with Needle on this, your work on "possibilities" as to Brienne's connection to Dunk is really no proof but definitely a solid theory and I find the theory pleasing for some reason, perhaps because I really liked Dunk and Brienne both so finding a connection between them is nice. Thanks.

 

[Eulalia]

I think the Stormlord has an excellent list of connections!

Also, doesn't Brienne say and think some of the same things that Dunk does? Can't remember the details but something like how she thinks slowly.

It wouldn't suprise me too much if GRRM wondered about making a female version of Dunk, (a descendant even)to see how people would respond. Except that Dunk was a handsome man and Brienne is supposed to be homely woman. Or he may have wanted to continue his story of Dunk.

Isn't the Dunk and Egg story echoed somewhat in a dance with dragons? Aegon and Duck?

 

[Young stormlord]

I guess that it is. Aegon and Duck... Pair a heir with lowly hedge knight and you get a good king! Nicely spotted.