Thoughts on Leiber (An Introduction by New Chatter)

[Jay]

the info is also confirmed in John Clute's Illustrated Encyclopaedia of Science Fiction.

Which IMHO, and in regards to my general tastes, is the highest order of confimation in the genre.

 

[Darken Rahl]

Just want to add my vote for ranking Leiber with the best of the best as it were. I've only read his Lankhmar work, but was immediately captivated by the characters, and the writer's somewhat skewed sense of humor. (They steal a house!!) Add in the mysterious Ning and Sheelba making inane (and insane) requests of our heroes, and taunting Death himself, and no one should be able to put a story down unfinished. Nehwon being outside time (nehwon = no when) is a stroke of ingenuity in itself since it allows the characters to be placed in almost any situation. Excellent writing, great scenarios, and great characters. what else could you want. I wouldn't attempt a comparison with Tolkien, just say they are both Masters and lift a glass in their honor....

 

[Brys]

I am new to this forum so please bare with me if I should seem silly or make unintentionally ridiculous posts.

Currently, I am rereading "Ill Met in Lankhmar" by Fritz Leiber (White Wolf Publishing edition, 1995) and would like to know your thoughts on the following questions:

1.) Have you (the counter to the royal "we") read any of Leiber's work before?

2.) What are your feelings in regards to the characters Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser?

3.) Considering that Leiber and Tolkien are of the same generation of fantasy writers, how do you believe that their comparitive and contrasting approaches to fantasy writing are important? In what ways?


Thank you for your time, and I hope everyone takes interest in this subject.

1) I'm currently reading Claws from the Night, and I've read all of Swords and Deviltry. Ill met in Lankhmar is still the best in my mind.
2) Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser are extremely well done characters, and most modern fantasy manages to create anything like as good characters.
3) I think that Leiber is definitely a better author than Tolkien, but less influential. Tolkien was good at worldbuilding, but nothing else necessary for a novel. Leiber was the opposite - his worldbuilding isn't very good, but he's excellent at everything else. His prose is much better written, more intelligent and more fluent than anything by Tolkien, as well as more literate, yet it is easier and more enjoyable to read. Still, both authors had a big influence on the fantasy genre, but Tolkien was better known as epic fantasy has always been a bigger genre than Heroic/Swords&Sorcery fantasy. Lankhmar is probably the most influential city ever written about though (most fantasy series have at least one city based off Lankhmar to an extent - Krondor for Feist, Ankh-Morpok for Pratchett etc, but not one of Tolkien's cities can claim such influence - other than those who just copied him.)

 

[Jayaprakash Satyamurthy]

That's a pretty neat summing-up of Leiber, Brys. As to his world-building, I'd say he was less serious than Tolkien was about it, following more in the footsteps of someone like Robert E Howard in creating fantastic settings for his fantastic tales, than in setting up an independant, fully-formed world with history, genealogy and languages. I think the key to Leiber's greatness is the sense of joy in storytelling, even when he's telling a grim, horrific tale.

 

[ravenus]

I think the key to Leiber's greatness is the sense of joy in storytelling, even when he's telling a grim, horrific tale.

You said the magic words, now give us some names!!!

 

[Jayaprakash Satyamurthy]

Two novels that fall between urban dark fantasy and pure horror: Our Lady of Darkness (highly recommended) and Conjure Wife. You might also find that some of the horror anthologies you have actually contain tales by Leiber. One very grim tale by him, written in an sf vein, is Coming Attraction.

 

[Leto]

In short stories, look especially for horror/fantastic in Gonna roll the bones, The Automatic pistol, The Girl with Hungry eyes (very strange one), I'm looking for Jeff,The Thirteen step, The man who made friends with electricity and The Inner circle.

 

[Jayaprakash Satyamurthy]

Gonna roll the bones

Oh, that is a chilling one. I read, and was pleasurably disturbed by it, ages before Lieber became a name I recognised and looked out for.

 

[ravenus]

The Girl with Hungry eyes (very strange one)

That's the one where this guy is transfixed by his neighbor and imagines her to be a spider, right? That is AWESOME.

 

[Leto]

Nope, that's the one about a mysterious model whose also a psychic vampire. But AWESOME is a good word to define it.

 

[Taltos]

Some things I remember about Leibers books:
- The wanderer - nice apocalypsis description
- Silver eggheads - a "true horror storie" for all fiction readers/writers
- Green Millenium - nice but easily forgotten
- A pail of air - one of my favourite post-apocalyptic stories
- the last letter - another "horror storie" of possible future

 

[Brys]

Hi McMurphy. I wouldn't worry too much about silly postings - I've made a few so you're in good company.

As for Fritz Leiber. I've only read a book of his short stories (Ship of Shadows) and I like what I read. Primarily, Leiber has one quality which is sometimes sadly lacking - a touch of originality.

I think it's difficult to compare Tolkien and Leiber - Tolkien took a body of work that was already there (Norse Myths, Wagner's Ring Cycle) and transformed them into the gigantic saga which we all know and love.

I think in popularity, Tolkien will always have the edge because of the draw of familiarity between his worlds and the myths of our own.

Leiber, on the other hand, tends to approach subjects from a slightly unorthodox angle - and this is his biggest strength. Also, the diversity of his ideas (check out his short stories The Big Time, Gonna Roll the Bones and Belsen Express to see what I mean).

All in all a fine and sometimes underrated writer - one of those people I keep meaning to read more of but never seem to get round to. Perhaps your post has given me the kick I need to get some more of his stuff.

The "originality" that seems lacking is because of when he was writing. Leiber was writing, in some instances before Lord of the Rings, and he wasn't going to change his style after that. Leiber manages to do some things a lot better than Tolkien - characterisation, plot, and quality of writing. Leiber also puts a lot of humour, but really well done (and people say Pratchett's books are hilarious? They don't know what they're missing) into some of his stories. I think that his first few stories in Swords and Deviltry were the best, but some of his others have come pretty close. Anyway, you have to read at least some of the Lankhmar books. Tolkien will always have the edge because firstly, he's always in print and easy to get hold of. Secondly, the LotR film means all those who watched it think of reading Tolkien. Thirdly, the fantasy genre is associated closely with Tolkien, and you have to be a pretty avid fan to hear about Leiber. Leiber deserves to be recognised at least equally to Tolkien - he played almost as influential a role (most kinds of non-epic fantasy owes a lot to him, as does a significant amount of epic fantasy), and he was a better writer, but unfortunately most people haven't heard of him. If someone says they like David Gemmell, just say that they should be reading Leiber who is (in some ways) similar and far better.

 

[BAYLOR]

Some of the best fantasy I've ever read. Im surprised Hollywood hasn't taken an interested in adapting Fafherd and the the Grey Mouser to the bi screen.

 

[Extollager]

Well, Tolkien and Leiber both "wrote fantasy." But it's like comparing Shakespeare and Oscar Wilde because they both "wrote plays." Tolkien's all about the wonder in the world, vast depths of time, but also the goodness of commonplace things like bread and trees and "ordinary" people. Leiber's Mouser stories tend to be for the "sophisticated" reader, as many of us like to think we are in our teens and early twenties, a bit jaded but still ready to take an interest if there's a whiff of risqué sex about the place.

 

[Victoria Silverwolf]

That's an excellent insight, and goes a long way to explain why Leiber appeals to me. I suppose it also shows why I enjoy Sheckley, who sort of falls into the same vague cynical/decadent category. Interesting to see you mention Wilde, since I see the same wit and style in Leiber as well. (As far as Shakespeare goes, he seems to have written in just about every possible style. Maybe Love's Labour's Lost would be the closest thing to Wilde/Leiber from the Bard.)

 

[J Riff]

It is, and Fritz was always a favorite. Mouser stories are good adventurous adventures, and he seemed to be able to diverge into various other types of writing, so you never quite knew what to expect.

 

[Extollager]

I don't mean for the idea to be taken very seriously -- that Shakespeare : Wilde :: Tolkien : Leiber. But maybe it can bear a little more use.

I get the sense that for Wilde and Leiber, life isn't really all that interesting but we can try to make it interesting enough if we perform for others and for our own gratification.

Shakespeare knows that life can look that way and he puts the notion into Macbeth's mouth. But for Shakespeare, and for Tolkien, life is indeed meaningful. They are life-affirmers. In Shakespeare's comedies life is affirmed with marriages, and in the tragedies the tragic hero gains insight. In Tolkien the defenders of life may go down to defeat but they did well, did the right thing, and there is hope. (I believe there is, even in King Lear.)

I don't think Leiber has these qualities and it's not my sense that Wilde did either, in his well-known works anyway. (I know there's some discussion about a very late-in-life change in the man.)

 

[hitmouse]

Importance of Being Earnest is, if I remember correctly, a comedy where life is affirmed by marriage at the end.

I would argue that An Ideal Husband is about a decent man, compromised by human flaws, trying to do the right thing.