Adults opinions on YA

[CarlottaVonUberwald]

actually tis rarely being my opinion beign dismissed i haven't read much youth litereature in a whiole so don't feel equipped to comment. it's me seeing others views ignored.

 

[Nesacat]

I worked in a school for several years and I have to agree with Carlotta. Not many people listened to the opinions of the young adults, especially when it came to stocking the library. I was one of those who bought books for the library and it was often a fight to get in books the students wanted as opposed to what the teachers thought they should read.

It was the same with parents. Very few of them actually cared to listen to how their children felt and things often turned very unpleasant with the parents wanting to go one way and the student another entirely. It's odd really, because many of the parents had not read the books the students wished to read. Same with the teachers; yet they were not willing to give the books a chance.

It was almost as if they were afraid somehow.Like Mark I hope to see a time when reviews from young people will be respected as much those of adults.

 

[Alia]

It was almost as if they were afraid somehow.

Curious, Nesa on how that could be?

 

[j d worthington]

Well, I'm reminded of what a struggle Baum's Oz books had to be accepted by librarians and parents and teachers ... for decades only the children supported the books, it seems.... Now they're considered among the classics of children's literature. It often does seem that they're afraid of letting their children think for themselves, or pick what they like or dislike. As a parent, I always wanted to share the things I liked, but I also took a great deal of pride in my daughter's independent streak where such things were concerned. Sometimes we'd jibe, more often not. And whenever we didn't, I was proud of her for going her own way.... She was never one to mirror others, thank goodness (at least, beyond a limited point)....

 

[Carolyn Hill]

Mark's post about the site with reviews by teens sent me Googling for other sites with more current content. I found one, Teenreads http://www.teenreads.com/reviews/index.asp, that has an impressive collection of reviews, many of them up-to-date. But when I read the "Meet Our Reviewers" page, I noticed that not all of the reviewers are teens.

Another, TeenInk http://teenink.com/Books/, has reviews that are all written by teens--but I wonder about the books. Many of them seem to be the sort that are assigned in school or for college prep, rather than the kind the kind that are sold as books for teens. Maybe my misconceptions are showing, but are today's teens really choosing to read Moby Dick or Les Miserables on their own? That aside, I was happy to see reviews for books by SFF authors such as Tolkien, Tad Williams, Philip Pullman, Douglas Adams, Garth Nix, Robert Heinlein, and Isaac Asimov.

(Has anyone read Alice Hoffman's The Ice Queen? One of TeenInk's reviews made me think I might like to read that book.)

I'm going to keep Googling.

 

[Carolyn Hill]

Here's a link to the list of books nominated by teens for the top ten books (picked by teens) of 2005: http://www.hcpl.net/teens/books_zines/teenstopten2005.php

Here's a link to the 2004 list: http://www.hcpl.net/teens/books_zines/2004TeensTopTen.php

This page lets download a PDF file that contains the nominations for 2006, along with teens' comments on the nominations: http://www.ala.org/ala/yalsa/teenreading/teenstopten/teenstopten.htm

(I guess this all belongs in a different thread. Not "Adult opinions on YA," but "Teen opinions on YA.")

 

[CarlottaVonUberwald]

Mark's post about the site with reviews by teens sent me Googling for other sites with more current content. I found one, Teenreads http://www.teenreads.com/reviews/index.asp, that has an impressive collection of reviews, many of them up-to-date. But when I read the "Meet Our Reviewers" page, I noticed that not all of the reviewers are teens.

Another, TeenInk http://teenink.com/Books/, has reviews that are all written by teens--but I wonder about the books. Many of them seem to be the sort that are assigned in school or for college prep, rather than the kind the kind that are sold as books for teens. Maybe my misconceptions are showing, but are today's teens really choosing to read Moby Dick or Les Miserables on their own? That aside, I was happy to see reviews for books by SFF authors such as Tolkien, Tad Williams, Philip Pullman, Douglas Adams, Garth Nix, Robert Heinlein, and Isaac Asimov.

(Has anyone read Alice Hoffman's The Ice Queen? One of TeenInk's reviews made me think I might like to read that book.)

I'm going to keep Googling.

i have read the ice queen ... a long time ago cant remember much lol and actually a lot of odler teens do read these books. or at least the ones i am in contact with..

 

[Nesacat]

Alia ... I think that it had a lot to do with the fact that many of the teachers, even the ones that taught Literature and English, had stopped in their reading. They were, to a large extent, out of touch with what was in the market currently and were also in over their heads as far as dealing with how much young adults had changed.

I believe they wanted very much to maintain the status quo because that was something they understood and had some measure of control over. Many of the new books for young adults dealt with things they never had to deal with as young adults and there were topics they had problems addressing. As far as the younger teachers went, they just didn't have a reading habit to start with. So all they knew were the books they'd used when they were in school.

It's not a good state of affairs and it creates frustration on both sides. The teachers can't understand why the students wont stick to the tried and tested and students fight to find their own way and assert their individuality and read books that have meaning to their lives today. When I left the school, things had changed to some extent since both the librarian and me actively championed getting in books that the students wanted. I don't know if that is still the case as we have both left the school. There is so much being written for young adults and I really do believe that their opinions should be taken in consideration.

Brown Rat ... Ice Queen is a beautiful book. For me it's one of Alice Hoffman's best. It's a retelling of the old story and draws in many other fairy tales. It reads like a song. I posted the beginning and ending in the Favourite Beginning and Endings thread so you can go have a look see if you wish.

 

[Carolyn Hill]

Thank you, Nesacat and Carlotta! I will definitely get Ice Queen.

 

[Alia]

Alia ... I think that it had a lot to do with the fact that many of the teachers, even the ones that taught Literature and English, had stopped in their reading. They were, to a large extent, out of touch with what was in the market currently and were also in over their heads as far as dealing with how much young adults had changed.

I believe they wanted very much to maintain the status quo because that was something they understood and had some measure of control over. Many of the new books for young adults dealt with things they never had to deal with as young adults and there were topics they had problems addressing. As far as the younger teachers went, they just didn't have a reading habit to start with. So all they knew were the books they'd used when they were in school.

It's not a good state of affairs and it creates frustration on both sides. The teachers can't understand why the students wont stick to the tried and tested and students fight to find their own way and assert their individuality and read books that have meaning to their lives today. When I left the school, things had changed to some extent since both the librarian and me actively championed getting in books that the students wanted. I don't know if that is still the case as we have both left the school. There is so much being written for young adults and I really do believe that their opinions should be taken in consideration.

Do you think this still holds true nowadays?

I'm not sure how old you are Nesa, I'm 36 this year. I still feel I'm young enough to read my kids books (god, I hope so because I do more then they do). I feel I'm kind of intouch with what they are going through, in terms of reading. I look at their teachers and see a young generation. Those older teachers that my children have had to endure through are ones who have written books, Y A books in fact. Now I know this isn't the case for many places, but it appears to me that there is a younger generation teaching our children then there was when I was growing up. I remember the older generation of teachers who made us read non interesting stories and then lectured on them with a monotone voice. It drove me mad. I was thankful for college with our required reading and how the teachers made it interesting with their intriguing questions. I loved it. There was a big difference.

Which (hopefully) leads me back to the question of why adults are afraid of the youth nowadays. Why is that? Why do we look at them in fear and ignore their thoughts, ideas and more? Is it every adult, or just an older generation of adults? Or those who only teach high school? (*giggles* I would be scared!!!)

Also, just for the record, I agree with Caroletta on adults not listening to the youth. I lived through that when I was a youth too. And as an adult, I have found myself not listening at times.

 

[Nesacat]

Do you think this still holds true nowadays?

I'm not sure how old you are Nesa, I'm 36 this year. I still feel I'm young enough to read my kids books (god, I hope so because I do more then they do). I feel I'm kind of intouch with what they are going through, in terms of reading. I look at their teachers and see a young generation. Those older teachers that my children have had to endure through are ones who have written books, Y A books in fact. Now I know this isn't the case for many places, but it appears to me that there is a younger generation teaching our children then there was when I was growing up. I remember the older generation of teachers who made us read non interesting stories and then lectured on them with a monotone voice. It drove me mad. I was thankful for college with our required reading and how the teachers made it interesting with their intriguing questions. I loved it. There was a big difference.

Which (hopefully) leads me back to the question of why adults are afraid of the youth nowadays. Why is that? Why do we look at them in fear and ignore their thoughts, ideas and more? Is it every adult, or just an older generation of adults? Or those who only teach high school? (*giggles* I would be scared!!!)

Also, just for the record, I agree with Caroletta on adults not listening to the youth. I lived through that when I was a youth too. And as an adult, I have found myself not listening at times.

That would make us about the same age. I'll be 37 this year. We really do have a huge problem with the education system in much of Asia. There's a drive to gear people for paying jobs and the art of reading falls by the way. Books are not important unless it's a textbook or professional reading material that would lead to a good job and a high income. Or maybe coffee table books and leather bound editions that one ever reads but show a certain level of income.

In fact, here it's the older teachers who instilled a love of reading. And unfortunately teaching has become the 'easy' career to choose. Most of the teachers have no desire to teach per se. They like the benefits, the holidays, etc. Children spend their days days attending tuition classes and memorising. They'll spit all the facts out and ace exams. Perfect worker droids. Many Asian parents, unfortunately, don't listen to their kids either. They 'know' what's good for them and that's the way it's going to be. The old ways have been tried and tested and are hard to change. However, I must say that the kids are beginning to stand up for themselves and to go their own way and they open up whole new paths.

It's funny how everyone assumes that given a choice, a young adult will always make the wrong one. They might make a different one but that's not a bad choice or a wrong choice. I left the international school about two years ago and if anything the situation has gotten worse in the education system. I got hooked on books because my mom read to me and like you, she still does. I regularly find that my books have migrated to her room, the latest being the Harry Potter ones and my collected Beatrix Potter. She read out Tuppeny, Feefo and Jinks last night. That was the first Enid Blyton she'd ever bought me and I'd finally manage to find a copy. But you know, none of my younger cousins read at all. Nor their parents. They've seen all the movies though.

I was lucky in that my parents listened and at least tried to understand though I know I did not make it easy for them. I was the renegade, unlike my brother who has walked this ridiculously straight path through life. And I am eternally grateful that they understood and accepted and even encouraged the voracious reading habit, because I know now that they bought me books at the expense of many other things. The accepted the choices I made though they were radically different and now I'm officially the black sheep or cat amongst my relatives, who are convinced my mom and dad are the worst parents, which is fine since it lets me walk to the beat of my own band.

I think it's a lot to do with insecurity. The world is changing very quickly and the gap between the generations is widening. Perhaps that is part of the fear. It's all the things you don't understand that are the norm to the youth. Perhaps there is a need to force them down familiar paths and into traditional cookie cutter shapes. I think we need to remember what Gibran said about Children.

"Your children are not your children. They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself. They come through you but not from you, And though they are with you, yet they belong not to you. You may give them your love but not your thoughts. For they have their own thoughts. You may house their bodies but not their souls, For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow, which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams. You may strive to be like them, but seek not to make them like you. For life goes not backward nor tarries with yesterday."

I don't think it's every adult or even an entire generation. I think it depends on how hard you fight change and how much you are willing to accept that the young also have lessons to teach and we cannot live out our dreams through them. And yes, some teachers are a marvel and leave a lasting impression on the students. The teacher I had in high school loved reading and she loved words. She's the one who introduced me to Jabberwocky and goodness, all these years later and I still remember. She talked about books and words as if they were a realm we could live in and be a part of.


There is a wealth of writing out there for young adults and some wonderful work being written by young adults themselves. I'm glad they are finally being heard and I hope it keeps growing. I agree with Carlotta that we need to listen a lot more to our youth and like you I've been guilty on the occassion of not.

 

[Alia]

Children spend their days days attending tuition classes and memorising. They'll spit all the facts out and ace exams. Perfect worker droids.

I think America is very relaxed compared to many other countries. And it's sad in a way, but good in another way. I fear that those perfect worker droids will some day out do us.

I think it's a lot to do with insecurity. The world is changing very quickly and the gap between the generations is widening. Perhaps that is part of the fear. It's all the things you don't understand that are the norm to the youth. Perhaps there is a need to force them down familiar paths and into traditional cookie cutter shapes.

Maybe not force them down familiar paths but rather take down the familiar path and let them branch off of there. Tradition isn't always a bad thing. It sets the foundation for well rounded individual, especially if the parents let the child explore their surroundings yet help them remember who they are, a young adult who is learning.

And as far as what Gibran said, I don't necessarily agree with it. Our children are products of us, no matter how much we don't want to be like our parents we still are. Last night I was driving with my daughter to the store. She starts to tell me about how her papa (my dad) start yelling at her earlier in the day for not picking up a cup. Minor thing and papa apologized later for it. The words he used are the same words I used with my kids. She recognized that. I told her... "no matter how hard I tried to not be like my parents, I ended up doing nearly the same thing." Now I'm not like them in many ways. I have found my own path to take. But along that path, many things I do are because I am the daughter of John and Dorothy, because of the traditions and values they taught me. My temper and short comings are from my dad. My outgoing, irritating bubbly personality comes from my mom. I'm not sure if it is gentics... or the way I was raised. I am who I am because of my parents and who they let me be.

But back to the main subject of this thread... I agree with you, it's the insecurities of the adults not wanting the children to make the same mistakes we made while we were their age. My daughter once told me "Let me find out through my mistakes." This is very hard because we don't want them to fail. So I tried another approach with her. Instead of telling her what to do (forcing her)... I merely discussed with her the many opitions she had and we listed them out. From there we could settle on a descision together. I don't want my head strong daughter to be corraled into tradition but I don't want her to discover that traditions aren't bad from failure either. I do want her to find her own path but I'm not willing to let her make the same mistakes I did. Most of the time she could see in a rational way that my choice for her was the best alternative and there have been a few times I had to bend. Talk about a nervous wreck when I did have to bend.

 

[j d worthington]

However, Alia, speaking both as a parent myself, and as someone who has helped raise numerous other kids, and observed more such relationships than I care to remember at this point, I'll say this: You MUST let them make the same mistakes. It's part of the human condition. They may find different solutions, they may go their own way, which is a healthy thing.... but we all tend to stumble over the same rocks and bruise our shins... just as we must stumble thus when learning to walk in the first place, and suffer the bumps and bruises and nicks and cuts ... or burn our hands in the fire now and again to learn how close is too close, and how close is warmth and life... I understand, believe me, the desire to save them those same trials and tribulations, and making the same mistakes ... but, in most cases, that's a part of becoming a fully-developed human being, and it can't be prevented. If we don't let them get hurt that way, we weaken them in the end. It's knowing how to balance that genuine need to protect them from harm, and to let them earn the battle scars necessary to learn wisdom and empathy and compassion (and a little common-sense, which is anything but common), that is perhaps the most difficult part of being a parent. It breaks the heart to see them go through it, but it's a part of them learning to be strong, independent, healthy individuals who can nonetheless cooperate and cherish the differences and similarities in others; and far too many parents rob their children of that chance by trying to force them to go along those older paths rather than, as you say, presenting them as among the many alternatives.

Sounds like you're working very hard at doing this the right way; and I applaud you for it. I only wish more parents (and teachers, and administrators) would realize that children are our most precious resource, and do the same...

 

[Alia]

I'll say this: You MUST let them make the same mistakes.

Let me say this first and foremost, the mistakes my daughter is making right now are NOT the same mistakes I made when I was her age.

Okay with that said... I disagree with this logic, JD! Yes on some things I let her find out for herself. But when it comes to things I know will harm her, hurt her, destroy her future I can NOT let her fail.

It's like teaching the baby not to touch the stove because it's hot. He will test the limits until he finds out that mom was right. Sure this is simple and easy and I will let my daughter find things out like that.

But when it comes to drugs... sex... and other crazy stuff like that. NO. I won't let it happen. I educate her on the harms and effects. We talk about how only once is all it takes to become pregnant or hooked on drugs or come down with AIDS. There are just some things I will stand firm on. Drugs is the biggy for me.

But for her to burn herself on the stove a few times will help her learn that I might not be wrong on listing out alternatives. Making mature decisions is a healthy way to grow up. I don't see how discussing different opitions is a bad thing. But there are some topics it is a close case.

 

[CarlottaVonUberwald]

Ahh but theres educating and theres closing her in... my mother hads me very young and although shes never said it i know she regrets it... but to try and STOP me having sex would most likely make it worse. same iwth drug im VEry anti-drugs but that cos my mother educated me on them and then said it is your choice ..but i will turn ou in if i find you taking/possesing them

also most teenagers when treated like that when they make a mistake aren't going to go a parent who they feel is going to repsond in a very adult/child relationship

 

[j d worthington]

Okay with that said... I disagree with this logic, JD! Yes on some things I let her find out for herself. But when it comes to things I know will harm her, hurt her, destroy her future I can NOT let her fail.

But when it comes to drugs... sex... and other crazy stuff like that. NO. I won't let it happen. I educate her on the harms and effects. We talk about how only once is all it takes to become pregnant or hooked on drugs or come down with AIDS. There are just some things I will stand firm on. Drugs is the biggy for me.

I think, to some degree, we're talking at cross-purposes here. I do NOT advocate not providing guidelines or restrictions... but I DO know from bitter experience that you cannot live their lives for them; and that, no matter how much you may try to prevent such things, they MAY (not necessarily WILL) happen. The only way to prevent such is to follow Heinlein's advice of sealing them in a barrel and feeding them through the bunghole. This is the most painful part of being a parent ... knowing that, whatever you do, however good a parent you may be, whatever lessons you teach, however responsible you are... ultimately it IS their choice, and they are the ones who not only will, but HAVE TO make it. Just as we, in our turn, have done in our lives. Sometimes those choices will be spectacularly bad. More often, they will either be somewhere in the middle, or very good (usually leaning, one hopes, toward the good end of the spectrum, as a whole).

And as far as the "same mistakes" ... I do not refer to exact specifics; but there are only a limited number of the same general TYPES of choices open to us as human beings, because of our physical/psychological nature. The incidentals may vary widely, but the basic kinds of decisions are pretty much the same. (As a very insipid example: modern "designer" street drugs as opposed to marijuana/peyote, etc. -- this is what I refer to as the incidentals.)

That said, as I noted earlier, I applaud your efforts. Being a concerned, involved parent (which is obviously what you indeed are) is difficult, time-consuming, a pain-in-the-neck at times (especially during the worst of the teen years) ... and very rewarding, and full of tremendous moments of pride in the person; sometimes that very pride will result from times when they DO go against your wishes, and make a way of their own that works better for them; one we, as a parent, may not have even considered. This is one of those ways in which kids can teach as well as learn; and, if we're open to that, we all become richer for it ... but it's so hard to know, sometimes, when to clamp down and when to stand there aching to do so for fear of their falling but understanding that this is one where they must do it on their own. Being a parent truly is the hardest, and the most important, job in the world -- at least if you want to do it right.

Which, I hope, leads us back to the topic of YA books: the fact that parents, teachers and (especially) administrators have such a difficult time accepting the fact that kids are, generally speaking, one heck of a lot more intelligent than they are given credit for. They may lack experience, but those brains are sharp, often incisive, frequently amazingly insightful, and can cut through the deadwood like a laser through butter more often than not. Insincerity, for example, is often (not always) something they can spot a mile away ... Tolkien himself was very cognizant of this fact (see his essay "On Fairy-Stories"). And the adults who make the decisions (administrators and such) are seldom really in a position to understand what the current concerns of this group may be ... not necessarily because they don't want to know, but because they're so overloaded with other things that it often escapes them even with the best of intentions ... and how often, really, are those in the majority?

So, my take on this issue is that, while the adults must indeed make the final decision based upon their years of experience, the concerns of parents, etc.; the input of the kids themselves is not only healthy but vital to making good choices on the matter. If you want to reach the kids and give them better tools for coping with the very problems you're worried about ... go straight to the horse's mouth in the best way possible: make it clear by action, not precept, that you will listen -- you may not, ultimately, go with their choices, but they will indeed be carefully considered and not dismissed out of hand because they came from a young person. If they feel that they are being heard they tend, like adults themselves, to be more open to expressing themselves honestly. Just as is the case with violence, honest respect tends to breed even more respect; dishonesty and hypocrisy, however good the intention, damages that -- often beyond repair.

 

[Alia]

Being a concerned, involved parent

I think that's the key right there, JD. If all adults were concern and involved then the youth of today would have a higher chance of being successful.

the fact that parents, teachers and (especially) administrators have such a difficult time accepting the fact that kids are, generally speaking, one heck of a lot more intelligent than they are given credit for. They may lack experience, but those brains are sharp, often incisive, frequently amazingly insightful, and can cut through the deadwood like a laser through butter more often than not.

I so agree with you JD... even my two year old is more insightful then most adults.

while the adults must indeed make the final decision based upon their years of experience, the concerns of parents, etc.; the input of the kids themselves is not only healthy but vital to making good choices on the matter. If you want to reach the kids and give them better tools for coping with the very problems you're worried about ... go straight to the horse's mouth in the best way possible: make it clear by action, not precept, that you will listen -- you may not, ultimately, go with their choices, but they will indeed be carefully considered and not dismissed out of hand because they came from a young person. If they feel that they are being heard they tend, like adults themselves, to be more open to expressing themselves honestly.

Very well said!

I do NOT advocate not providing guidelines or restrictions... but I DO know from bitter experience that you cannot live their lives for them; and that, no matter how much you may try to prevent such things, they MAY (not necessarily WILL) happen.

Then we are clear... and I'm sorry for my end of the confusion. Guidelines or restrictions to me are the traditions of old. They are the values and moral (which to many, especially my teenager, are out dated) that our parents taught us. I realize that there are many issues facing teenagers today. We had drugs.. we had peer pressure... we had the same problems, just at a different year.

Its odd to me... when I was a youth, I found myself saying the same words that Caroletta said earlier about Adults not listening. I think each generation says and experiences that same thing.

Will the cycle end?

 

[j d worthington]

I had a feeling we were pretty much on the same page, but it was a confusion of terms... Glad it's cleared up...

 

[Alia]

Wooooo hoooo we're on the same page... time to celebrate. Cherry Brandy?

 

[j d worthington]

Virtual-ly the only thing going, right now...