"Anglo-Saxon genocide" contested again

[Ray McCarthy]

Dalriada. Mmmm. Great Northern Irish Kingdom extending over a large part of Scotland.

 

[svalbard]

There is a lot of work being done by historians such as Tim Clarkson who are calling into doubt the Northern Irish origins for Dal Riada.

 

[Ray McCarthy]

That sounds dubious ... however wherever it started it was on both sides of the sea, it's a Gaelic name and also preserved in Co. Antrim.

 

[svalbard]

Not so dubious. Leslie Alcock, as far back as the 80s, was casting doubt on the kingdoms Irish origins due to a lack of archeological evidence. The kingdom stood beyond the remit of any so called High King in Ireland or regional overlord in Ulster and was in conlict as often as not with both Irish and Pict.

 

[Ray McCarthy]

was in conlict as often as not with both Irish and Pict.

Sounds like everyone else in Ireland and Scotland, maybe even today
I don't think it's that important the exact origin given similarity of pronunciation of Gaelic and English, going back to split of P & Q in Co.Antrim and west Scotland compared to say Wicklow and Wales or Cornwall.

I'm trying to research rather earlier period! 2000BC to 100BC in Ireland.

 

[Dave]

The above study is still rather tenous. The sample is not wide enough.

Do you base that statement on the statement that they used only 2,000 samples? Because I don't think that small sample size is important here. Certainly, it is small compared to the size of the whole population, but there are distinct haplogroups in male y-DNA for which 2,000 samples would easily be enough to determine if the same distinct "Celtic" haplotype existed in Cornwall, North Wales, Isle of Man, Ireland and Scotland. Especially given that he deliberately used only individuals who had all four of their grandparents living close to each other in a rural area. Such individuals would actually be very hard to find and might itself explain the small sample size.

I would be much more confident in using genetics to confirm this that historical writings that are generally written later than the actual events, often romanticised, often written from the point of view of the victorious ethnic or political group. I would be much more confident of using genetics than language or pottery styles or diet, because they can change within a few generations.

 

[svalbard]

One of the big problems is the map. The authors of the study are basing it on a map of Britain in 600AD. The problem is that we do not know the extent of Anglo-Saxon or Brittonic kingdoms at that stage. That is as much a hotly debated subject as the invasion question. Warfare was endemic for the period and land passed through different rulers all the time.

One example would be Northumbria or to be more precise the dual kingdoms of Bernicia and Deira, where only one King from 600 to about 670 passed away peacefully. Add the hundreds if not thousands who perished in battle that period. For the most part the enemies of Northumbria were a coalition of Saxons from Mercia and British kingdoms from Wales or a coalition of British Kingdoms from the North. There were distinct racial lines in this war that lasted the best part of a 100 years until the Picts defeated Ecgfrith of Nirthumbria at Nechtansmere.

Gildas was writing at the time of the Saxon conquest/peaceful takeover which makes him as primary source as you are going to get.

 

[Dave]

One of the big problems is the map. The authors of the study are basing it on a map of Britain in 600AD. The problem is that we do not know the extent of Anglo-Saxon or Brittonic kingdoms at that stage.

I don't know enough about the study to know which map they are using, but if the genetics supports the map, then whether hotly disputed or not, the genetics is supporting it.

 

[svalbard]

The genetics do throw a whole new light on it. It is still remarkable that a Anglo-Saxon culture completely replaced the native culture. It could be down to the wiping out of the local elites, large amounts of men falling in battle, extensive emigration to Brittany. An interesting fact from this period is that out of 30,000 graves excavated only 110 identifiable native British goods were found. The Laws of Ine from Wessex also show that the lives of the native British were pretty worthless compared to a Saxon. Even the Saxon word for the natives Wealhas(foreigner) is instructive of how the relationship between the two peoples developed.

 

[Caledfwlch]

One of the weirdest findings of the current DNA experiments regards Wales and Cornwall.

Not only do Wales and Cornwall not share a common ancestory, but Wales itself appears to have 3 seperate "ethnic" groups. North Walians and South Walians are different to each other which is a surprise, but there is also a 3rd group, they are calling "ancient welsh" but one they have found very few people to have, and only in Wales, and I think a couple of people in south west England. Very odd.

But on the other hand, History and Legend speak of people like Cunedda bringing their people down to what we now call Wales during the dark ages, into North Wales, so maybe that explains it (they came from the British Kingdoms in what is now Strathclyde) a programme on Welsh Language TV about the new DNA findings recently mentioned it, but seemed to suggest Cunedda came in around 600ad, whilst my memory and Google seems to agree is he came down at the request of Maecsen Wledig (Magnus Maximus) to protect western Brittania from Irish Raiders. Which was of course much earlier.

I live in the county and former Kingdom of Ceredigion, and when a King of Gwynedd died, possibly Cunedda himself, his land as was usual was split between his 2 sons, rather than going to the eldest heir, the land 1 son, Ceredig took became of course Ceredigion.

Lot's of bizzare stuff going on, especially the strong link between the Welsh, the Basque and certain parts of iirc central Ireland. But then again, whilst most cultures mythology simply has the people coming from X God, Welsh and Irish myth has always spoken about our ancestors coming from the "East" so maybe there is a strong grain of truth there.

One Welsh legend has the Britons being founded by Brutas of Troy, with his Capital, Troia Newydd becoming eventually London, and the very name Brittania/Pryddein being a corruption of Brutas.

 

[Ray McCarthy]

North Walians and South Walians are different to each other which is a surprise,

Is that irony?

 

[Caledfwlch]

Is that irony?

No, had there been an "ethnic" split, I would have imagined it would be throughout the modern Welsh in General, not such a specific north/south split! Whatever went on in the dark ages, many Britons fled west into Wales, Cornwall and east into Armorica (Brittany) So it seems strange that the people as a general arent of a big melting pot of Briton ancestory, rather than N/S! On top of that of course, is Macsen Wledig's famous words, well I forget if its attributed to him, or a later creation. But there were words to the effect that the Britons should fear not Romes withdrawal etc, as by that time, there was plenty of Roman Blood and its Roman Discipline running through the Warrior Veins of the Britons thanks to mixed marriages between the two for centuries.

They didn't pick up much of a Roman Marker so far iirc, but in the North Wales town of Abergele there is a big chunk of Eastern med, running through a percentage of the male population.

I was surprised they did indepth testing in the Valleys of South Wales, I am sure in the past it was declined, because of course, with the coal mining and heavy industrialisation in the past, a huge number of migrants moved in from England, Ireland and Scotland.

 

[svalbard]

Sounds like everyone else in Ireland and Scotland, maybe even today
I don't think it's that important the exact origin given similarity of pronunciation of Gaelic and English, going back to split of P & Q in Co.Antrim and west Scotland compared to say Wicklow and Wales or Cornwall.

I'm trying to research rather earlier period! 2000BC to 100BC in Ireland.

You might want to, if you haven't already, look up John Koch. What brought him to mind, apart from your current interests is Caledfwlch's posts about Cunedda and Magnus Maximus. He gives a later date for Cunedda in Wales and he also has interesting paper about St. Patrick. To sum it up, a certain cleric called Patrick was Magnus Maximus's treasurer, master of ceremonies (cannot recall actual title) in Gaul. When it all went a bit pear shaped for Magnus, Patrick dissapeared with all the loot. He puts forward the theory that this Patrick is the St Patrick of Ireland. Problem is the dates. I have uploaded a file, hope it works, of a paper on thd Irish languageand its origins.

 

[Caledfwlch]

You might want to, if you haven't already, look up John Koch. What brought him to mind, apart from your current interests is Caledfwlch's posts about Cunedda and Magnus Maximus. He gives a later date for Cunedda in Wales and he also has interesting paper about St. Patrick. To sum it up, a certain cleric called Patrick was Magnus Maximus's treasurer, master of ceremonies (cannot recall actual title) in Gaul. When it all went a bit pear shaped for Magnus, Patrick dissapeared with all the loot. He puts forward the theory that this Patrick is the St Patrick of Ireland. Problem is the dates. I have uploaded a file, hope it works, of a paper on thd Irish languageand its origins.

Ooh, I like the idea of Patrick being Macsen's Treasurer - IIRC, Armorica (Brittany) was founded by one of Macsen's Generals, Conan Meriadoc, and Macsen seems the sort of guy to surround himself with the sorts of guys who go on to make their marks on the world.

What date does John Koch give for Cunedda? Common stories at least have him coming down at the request of Macsen, who lived in the 4th century, whilst the S4C programme for example claimed around 600ad iirc. Though of course its possibly you have the "arthurian" problem where people much further down the line are claiming X ancestor was, if not related then a close intimate of a famous figure, often Arthur, but istr a good few claimed descent from the Macsen too.

 

[svalbard]

He gives a date of early 5th century, but he concedes it could be later in the 5th century. He uses Maelgwn of Gwynedds reign as a starting point and works back the generations to Cunedda. This, as he admits, is a hazardous method and open to much debate. He also calls into question the historicity of Cunedda and suggests it may be an origin myth for the numerous Welsh royal houses, much as you point out above.

If he is real there are two possibilities to who invited him down from the Goddidon kingdom. If we say the first decade of the 5th century it could be Constantine III looking to bolster his western defenses before crossing to Gaul. The 2nd possibility is Vortigern if Cunedda is dated to the 420s.

That last paragraph is my theory not Koch's.

 

[svalbard]

http://www.caitlingreen.org/2015/07/were-there-huns-in-anglo-saxon-england.html?m=1

A really interesting article on the Migration Period in post -Roman Britain. The theory seems somewhat stretched, however, the ideas about a Hunnic influence on the foundation of Anglo-Saxon England is a tantalising one. For the record Caitlin Green is a highly regarded scholar on this period, and is not given over to crackpot theories.

 

[svalbard]

Historian on the Edge: Rethinking Warfare and Politics in Britain 400-600

Another update on this long and somewhat meandering thread. Guy Halsall, has an interesting take on the what may have happened in 5th and 6th centuries in Britain. He acknowledges the lack of primary sources for Britain and postulates his view by comparing what was happening on the Continent during the same period where sources, whilst scant are still more plentiful.

His view is one of slow progression by the Anglo-Saxons, sometimes fighting with and sometimes against the British. He argues for an initial small migration of Saxons during the latter period of Roman rule with these early settlement s `topped' up by later migrations.

 

[svalbard]

My apologies for reviving this old and meandering thread. New studies seem to be pushing the pendulum back to a more traditional view of the arrival of the AS in Britain.

Science | AAAS

www.science.org

 

[Danny McG]

Just to let you know I removed some general chatter about kippers from this thread...

I thought it was a bit fishy

 

[AllanR]

(the song writer knows about the inaccuracies)