Help!

[CynVision]

Help! Proper spelling needed for AF flight maneuver

Okay, I feel I've looked everywhere on the net for this. I'm stumped.

I need to know the correct spelling for the fancy manuver that the F-16's and F-18's do at airshows. The vertical climb, over the top pull out, reverse and further vertical climb. I'm sorry if I don't know the correct terms to give a good picture of it, I see it every year at the Chicago airshow. They usually have a lone F-18 (?) do this stunt. Comes in low and rockets up completely out of sight.

I know someone on the boards can come through for me!

 

[Rowan]

This is the site for the Navy Blue Angels movies and pictures. They fly the F/A-18A ... actually, I think it's currently the 'B' model, but I'm not that up on fighter aircraft. This site has *great* graphics and 'movies'.
http://www.blueangels.navy.mil/bluegal-movie.htm

US Air Force Thunderbirds flying the F-16 {which is who I wold guess you're looking for since Stargate is Air Force} Not as great a site, but pretty none the less.
http://www.airforce.com/thunderbirds/index.htm

And so my friend up North don;t feel left out:
The Canadian Snowbirds flying the Canadair CT-114 Tutor
http://www.snowbirds.dnd.ca/index.asp

I believe the manuver you're discribing is the 'extreme climb with 1/4 cloverleaf turn' The TB's do it as a diamond with a 5th man flying center. I think the BA's do. No idea with the SB's.

Note: All the manuvers that each team does are combat manuvers taught all fighter pilots. the teams make them special by doing them as sppeds [much faster or much slower] and closer together than any normal combat squadron would fly. There's guys are truly the 'Best of the Best' in fighter jocks.

I'm Army. That may be the best I can do for you. Hope it helps.

 

[CynVision]

Rowan,
Thanks for getting the Blue Angels link to me. That site has the rocking sound I love at an air show. I was concentrating on the Thunderbirds sites because of the AF connection.

I didn't want to bias the responses, because I'm spelling it so wrong I can't find it, but I'm looking for the Hemmilin? emmilin? stunt.

Here's a good trivia question, from a person that's missed a lot of episodes. Has O'Neill or Carter been shown doing anything with jets? I know they've been in the death gliders in the start of season two, but a reference was made in the introduction of Sam Carter that she flies jets. I've always assumed O'Neill did just by how long he's been in the AF. He probably got to pilot some of the tougher pre F-16 jets.

I just get a kick imagining O'Neill and Carter getting some flight time in. And this has sparked a bit of a fan fiction idea.

 

[Gemsong]

I asked my air force husband and all he can remember is the "starburst" manuever.

5 F-16's do a vertical climb then 4 peel off with the 5th continuing straight up.

Sorry we couldn't be more help.

 

[Rowan]

Planes and stunts

Okay, you mean an Immelman. As quoted from the The British Royal Air Force "Red Arrows" Aerobatic Team site: http://users.hol.gr/~maulwurf/aerobatics.html
7.- The Immelman: A combination of a half loop followed by a half roll. (A great way to find out how much dust is there in your airplane).

Kinda a rolling twist.

That doesn't sound like what you discribed: A fast, straight up acceleration, a 360 degree loop and then continue the climb. I'll still bet on a 1/4 cloverleaf [with four planes you get the full cloverleaf, that's why the name may sound odd.]

You're right, Gemsong... most of the flight teams do it as a 5 man 'starburst'. You don't always see the solo manuver due to flight location, weather, etc.


:blush:

 

[CynVision]

D'oh! I told you I coudn't spell! I probably pronounce it wrong too!

What I'm going for in needing this information is I was looking for a manuever that an enterprising AF Captain who's in an exchange program to the Tok'ra could teach to them. Something special and unique to the Tauri, of course.

Just another bit for a story. Very, very silly:

"Ah, Caston, the diplomat." O'Neill teased.

"Ha! Once they learned I was a pilot they had me flitting around in all sorts of neat stuff."

"San'luten?" Teal'c asked.

Caston craned a look around O'Neill. "Yeah, they got a few of those. That's a crazy one. I scared my instructor spitless trying an Immelman."

O'Neill and Carter stared. "You what!"

Caston spread her hands. "I had to try it. Cockpit of the sleek little equivilant of a F-16, I lay odds you'd both try it." She swept her finger between the two pilots.

etc.

 

[Rowan]

aerobatics

As I mentioned, the manuvers that *all* the stunt teams do are basic combat flight manuvers, so there'd be no suprises there.

Now, some pilots try for the odd stuff, like a triple Immelman or something, but in the military, you have probably just written off your career as a pilot of you do that. I'm sure some instructor at 'Top Gun' or somewhere has done it, but the services frown on you doing screwy things with their planes unless you're a test pilot.

That might be the way you have to go. Also, it would depend on what our AF Capt. was flying. I can't think of anything in the US inventory that could out fly/manuver a Death Glider, let's say. I can probably try and find some really off-the-wall manuver, but it would a test pilot thing and those are often literally made up on-the-spot.

As for an earliers question: It was mentioned that Carter 'flew missions' in Desert Storm. I have big doubts she was a pilot. The service wouldn't waste a high-forehead science type in combat. More likely she was flying electronic recon in an AWACS situation or the like. I also doubt Jack has gone the pilot route. Pilots don't do 'Spec Op'. Too much time is required to train in either field to be compatant... there wouldn't be enough time for him to have done both in his career.

 

[CynVision]

Aww nuts, Rowan.
I'm dancing the fine line of plausability for a character I use. And everything she knows. Darn. Up the river without a paddle!

I can see what you mean about Carter. It's a bit vague with the line in the first first season ep. I guess you can take it that she rode backseat in a jet that did 9 G's.

"Solutudes" had a few implied special missions (or maybe just disasterous mishaps) for O'Neill. I very well may have read too much into them.

Or, the writers started out in the wrong direction and had to do as much back peddaling as I do! I recall in "Hathor" Sam says O'Neill should resist her due to 'special forces' training was the words I think she used.

So, now I'm getting into an area I'm hazy on. I might have messed up big time with my lack of research. I thought special mission stuff was green beret/SEALS stuff. Which is Army/Navy, right? So what is special op in AF? And if O'Neill got more 'grounded' training how'd he end up in the AF?

I hazily recall that there is some cross training between AF and Navy fighters. Practice landing on carriers and that sort of thing.

--- *** -----
Oh, and Caston was doing stunts in a made-up Tok'ra technology aircraft. That was the 'neat stuff' she was so happy to have tried.

 

[Rowan]

Special Op et all

Army: Special Forces [green berets], 'Delta', 'RD/HRT' {Rapid Deployment/Hostage rescue Team], Rangers, etc
Navy: SEALS/BDU's
Marine: Force Recon and SEALS/BUDS
Air Force: Combat Controller Forces

Basically... if you want to sneak up on them by water, you get SEALS. If you want to drop in on them and do covert ops, your get SF or Rangers [or one of the special braches of Airborne Infantry]. Want to storm them from the beach - call the Marines. And for all that sneaky intell stuff you need to do all of that - like very far forward deployed observers for weather or aircraft, you get the Air Force.

Now... none of these lines are cast in concrete. Air Force go to Army schools. Navy trains the Army. O'Neill's military history is kept vague on purpose becasue most of the stuff they have him due is really much more Army than Air Force, but it's an Air Force oriented program, so they're stuck. It's just one of those things as viewers, we just go along with. And as writers, we have a field days trying to figure the whole mess out.

I've got an article stashed around here somewhere explaining the Air Force Special Operation Command, if I can find it.

All Special Operations personel, regardless of rank or service, are taught to resist interrogation and torture to a certain extent. It literally is a 'mind over matter' thing. There's nothing mystic about them... anyone could learn them, if they felt they had a need. They train on focused concentration and trying to seperate the 'mind from the body', to 'rise above' what's happening to you. Sorta martial arts zen. Also, they push you to the far extent of your physical and mental well beinging to show you how much further you can go than you thought you could before you begin to think of cracking. If they actually break you, you're out of the program. If they, our military could, so could the bad guys.

Carter: The actually comments from Kawalsky and Feretti implied had she every 'pulled x amount of G's in a simulator'. Her reply was 'Yes'. No one comes out and askes if she's flown herself. Now, with her Dad an General, I'm sure she's been able to cage flights and may have 'played the stick' on a few, but I doubt she's ever had actualy control of the air craft for the entire flight.

I think that's got it.:blush:

 

[CynVision]

Re: Special Op et all

Originally posted by Rowan
Carter: The actually comments from Kawalsky and Feretti implied had she every 'pulled x amount of G's in a simulator'. Her reply was 'Yes'. No one comes out and askes if she's flown herself. Now, with her Dad an General, I'm sure she's been able to cage flights and may have 'played the stick' on a few, but I doubt she's ever had actualy control of the air craft for the entire flight.

I think that's got it.:blush:

He.ehe. Yep I was reading about a 'flight school' that's giving people rides in jets. Takeoff and landing is for the guide, but anything inbetween is fair game for someone who's got the knowledge about how to do it.

I'm going to have to look at it again on the DVD. But off the top of my head-- In the pissing contest, I thought Sam was asked something about having experienced a training excersize of some sort that pulled 9 G's because Stargate travel would be "way worse than that." Which I thought would be done a real aircraft. Again, she could have been back seat on one of the "treats" her father arranged. That would surprise the guys, and O'Neill, Kolwasky and Feretti looked a bit impressed.

There is a way to pull G's in a flight simulator? They don't say centrifuge. Unless that's insider slang for it. Or, I didn't know that somehow a simulator was fitted into and controlled a centrifuge.

I'ts a bit silly to say that Sam as a scientist would'nt be risked in combat. That's what she's doing going through the gate. Mucho shooting, getting blasted with staff weapons, etc. Daniel is right there with her.

Even if I'm not satisfied with O'Neill's background, I'm beginning to get the feel for what the AF does-- They check out the area, shoot or bomb anything really dangerous and then transport what or who is needed on site. If there's a really bad area to fly over, send your special force guys who fly really fast.

The SGC is AF because of the association with space and the space program, right? Okay, and the fact that they transport stuff with the gate. I guess the SGC is suited for the AF if you consider it that way...

I was always giving the SGC a bit of lattitude on who they brought into the program. SG-3 was a special army group IIRC in "The Broka Divide." They've always thrown in "Air Force Colonel" as O'Neill's title but now I'm thinking, hell, that was a script or filming mistake, he could be Army. And from a special ops background. But i get all confuzzled because both he and Sam get that snappy blue dress uniform when out in public.

I'm wishing I'd paid a bit more attention to the Gulf war...

 

[CynVision]

Re: Special Op et all

Originally posted by Rowan
if they felt they had a need. They train on focused concentration and trying to seperate the 'mind from the body', to 'rise above' what's happening to you. Sorta martial arts zen. Also, they push you

this actually works for me. I have a story that hinges on resisting an incredible prize.

But, now I've got the annoyance with O'Neill's background and a character I was playing off him as being annoying for being of a similar mein. I've looked too hard and now I'm doubting everything...


----Cynvision wanders off muttering, "Prolly been done before in another fic... oh well."----

 

[Rowan]

The SGC plot lines

If you start getting into the whole 'who's doing what when to who' thing on whichmilitary branch, the show gets really confusing.

You're right. You don't pull usually pull G's in a sim, unless it's a centrifuge. And there are some cockpit sims set up in a centrifuge cinfiguration. [Had a friend who ran training sims for the Air Force] There's a 4 G sim at the Huntsville Space and Rocket center in Huntsville, AL that's a blast along with a micro-G sim. Had a chance to 'work' myself into oblivion when I was there two years ago for 'Advanced Space Camp' - the grown-up's version of Space Camp for kids. {Where the Adults get to play shuttle astronaut trainees for a week with a final of a 7 hour 'mission sim' aboard the 'Endeavor', MissionControl at Houston and/or the Space Station. I 'flew' as pilot for take-off and docking and finished the mission as Station Operations Manager. The whole week ran about $900 US room, board and full used of the museam and sims. Cheap at twice the price.} My team - Team Shepard - spent as much time in the actual flight sims and the grav and micor sims as possible to train for our 'flight', even though we wouldn't have a grav change in flight. I just wanted to know if I could do my job at least in 4 G's.

They also have a program there called 'Avation Challenge' for both kids and adults for jets.

Saying risking Sam in combat in the Gulf vrs Sam at SGC are two different situations. The SGC, other than being a great science playground, is a fictious situation. Even there, the chances would realistically be Sam would be on base and someone else would be sent out on first contact. Same with Daniel. But that would make for a very boring show with minumal conflicts. Believe me... the military does not like conflicts. And Sam would be one hell of a scientific and financial investment to the service. She'd be kept ground bound 'for the benifit of the service'.

Same with Daniel. He'd be too great a risk in the field.

SG-3 is the Marines. I'm still not sure how they fit in there, except as a hold over from the movie where Jack was a Marine. As to why SGC falls under the Air Force, probably because the Air Force has a more active Space Program and NORAD is Air Force Territory, pretty much.

As for 'paying more attention' during the Gulf War, it was a zoo. I'd spent 15 years at that point learning aircraft, track vehicles [like tanks], helicopters outlines to recognize who were the 'Good Guys' and the 'Bad Guys' so I'd know who to duck, dodge or shoot at. Didn't make a bit of difference. With everyone who was involved in the Joint Forces, you were just as likely to see a flight of three Mig's fly overhead right after a wing of F-16s.

I did my first day in Rhyaidh, as a matter of fact Freaked me out. After a while you just went with the idea if they were shooting at you they didn't like you and it was okay to shoot back. Kind of a basic idea, but, hey... we were a hospital unit. We could do basic.

If they were shooting at us, things has gotten 'way too close to discuss things.
Made for severe craziness.

 

[CynVision]

Re: Planes and stunts

Originally posted by Rowan
That doesn't sound like what you discribed: A fast, straight up acceleration, a 360 degree loop and then continue the climb. I'll still bet on a 1/4 cloverleaf [with four planes you get the full cloverleaf, that's why the name may sound odd.]

You're right, Gemsong... most of the flight teams do it as a 5 man 'starburst'. You don't always see the solo manuver due to flight location, weather, etc.


:blush:

I'll likely have to go to the air show again. Pen in hand to write down what the announcer says that darn F-18 is doing. I seem to only have the words for all the different stunts in my head when I'm watching them.

Not that I could see the plane too well after the first vertical ascent. I always assumed it rolled off vertical with the canopy 'down' towards the ground. I guess if it's just two fancy full-power vertical ascents there's a roll in the middle to make the pullout for the second leg.

 

[Rowan]

manuver

O-kay. Roll and loop are two different thngs. A roll is where the plane rotates around it's 'z' axis - the invisable line drawn from nose to tail, like a bar-be-que spit. A loop is where the plane rotates on it's 'x' axis making a full or partial revolution by changing it's nose or tail pitch.

Good pictures: http://liftoff.msfc.nasa.gov/Academy/ROCKET_SCI/SHUTTLE/ATTITUDE/PYR.HTML

http://daac.gsfc.nasa.gov/DAAC_DOCS/direct_broadcast/Dundee2000/sld010.htm

We're now discussing two different manuvers. I'm pretty sure one of the aerobatic team web sites discribes this.

 

[CynVision]

Re: The SGC plot lines

Originally posted by Rowan
except as a hold over from the movie where Jack was a Marine.

:errrr: Okay. It's like 42. My basic foundation is off. I totally missed that little inconsisity with the movie vs. TV show. And I just watched the movie and the first 4 eps in order the other day.

Why the *bleep* did they change it? They had to have done preproduction stuff. Banged ideas together. They had to know the arc of the first season at least. Did they not think a Marine was going to appreciate the science and diplomacy enough? I know RDA had a big say in what went in. But shoot, they had the X-files inconsistancies to look at.

Did they just think, "It will keep the boards hopping." or "They'll figure it out on the boards."

I now understand why the DVD commentary of Stargate has the director and producer saying twenty-five times 'we're not the guys behind the TV show' :coolyello

 

[CynVision]

Re: manuver

Originally posted by Rowan
http://daac.gsfc.nasa.gov/DAAC_DOCS/direct_broadcast/Dundee2000/sld010.htm

Brain freeze. Physics diagrams at 1:30AM.

Horizontal flight to a vertical ascent, prolly a roll here to line up for a pitch change to parallel the ground possibly canopy down, rolls canopy up, pitches back to vertical again and ascends a second time.

Phew. And, I though I had trouble describing action scenes with eight people.

 

[Rowan]

manuver

It's beginning to sound like an extreme climb Immalman, all right. It's only 2356 here and I'm confused. You just confused a couple of time zones ahead of me.

 

[CynVision]

A stair step. Imagine running a tiny toy plane up a stair. Up, flat, up again.

Anyway, my happy illusions are shattered about how well I was doing on my fics. :crying:

 

[Rowan]

Don't shatter

Oh Lord... don't shatter! Just because an Army sergeant can't remember a fighter jock manuver. Discribe it in the fic just the way you just discribe it and if someone like Jack is talking about it, let him fumble abround about what it's really called and then have him make something up.

It's not like he hasn't done that before.... nentendos and all.

Besides... I'm getting eager to see this fic. :blush:

 

[CynVision]

Re: Don't shatter

Originally posted by Rowan
and if someone like Jack is talking about it, let him fumble abround about what it's really called and then have him make something up.

It's not like he hasn't done that before.... nentendos and all.

Besides... I'm getting eager to see this fic. :blush:

I guess that the present scene in the third fic will work as it is, if Jack's not a pilot, he must by now understand basic flight stuff having been on base with other pilots. Locker room stories. if an adventerous young AF Captain he thinks is responsible says she's messing with Tok'ra ships doing unusual stuff, he'd likely be shocked. I can fix the following line.

Another big trouble is in the preceeding fic to this I work from the point that Jack is a pilot and has flown a few different AF things. I have a character telling him to handle a water craft like a C-135 Starlifter. "You've got all of the power and none of the grace" Although, I think they do make some sweet flybys. my miss-assumption with his background has been with me so long.

I always get a kick when O'Neill glazes over tough alien words. O'Neill feels time wasted struggling to be proper is time you could be getting stuff done. I think they are funny ad-libs.

I think from the DVD comentary of the movie, Kurt Russell felt the same way about it. Something about him saying at the script review, "I don't have to say a single word of this do I?"

As for where the "Bad" drafts of the stories reside it's www.silverdreams.org. I'm thinking tonight they're going to undergo a major revision so check them out now and you could have a before and after of how I resolve Caston and O'Neill's conflicts.