Albus Dumbledore (Spoilers for Half Blood Prince)

[FeedMeTV]

Oops sorry :blush:

What's the protocol for spoilers? The book's been out a long while now and its a hassle putting the spoiler box around everything. I vote that we issue this warning now - "From now on, expect spoilers in this thread!"

Yours was a good point that one of the real Death Eaters would have performed the spell on Dumbledore if Snape hadn't. If Dumbledore really IS dead, do you think it would have made much of a difference to the plot if another Death Eater had performed the curse? Would it have mattered who killed him if Dumbledore's plan was to be killed? He pleaded to Snape directly, if Dumbledore's plan was to be killed, surely any one of the death Eaters would have done.

It seemed odd to me that Dumbledore wasn't more suprised to learn that Snape was still a Death Eater if he truly believed he was on his side. He didn't seem shocked and didnt ask for explanations, just pleaded for his 'life'. I would have thought he would have commented on Snape's betrayal.

 

[PTeppic]

Originally posted by FeedMeTV It seemed odd to me that Dumbledore wasn't more suprised to learn that Snape was still a Death Eater if he truly believed he was on his side. He didn't seem shocked and didnt ask for explanations, just pleaded for his 'life'. I would have thought he would have commented on Snape's betrayal.

Good point. Dumbledore has reinforced in pretty much every book, to either Harry himself or the Order, that he has a very good reason to trust Snape but is not saying what it is. Harry suggests in HBP after hearing Trelawney's admission that it's to do with Snape being the one who hears the prophecy, but that seems a bit lame to me. So, as you say, put together the singular lack of explanation still about what the reason for trust is, and add to it the lack of surprise, disappointment etc., and you've got some mile high telegraphs to the "real" goings on.

 

[little smaug]

Originally posted by FeedMeTV If Dumbledore really IS dead, do you think it would have made much of a difference to the plot if another Death Eater had performed the curse? Would it have mattered who killed him if Dumbledore's plan was to be killed?

Yes, I think it would have made a difference. It all comes back to the Unbreakable Vow. Draco was all poised to kill Dumbledore, but couldn't. So if anyone other than Snape had then killed him, it would have violated the Vow, and Snape would have died. Assuming that Snape is a spy in the Death Eater camp, the good guys would then have lost their most valuable asset.

So, still assuming Snape's innocence, this means that either a) Dumbledore gave his own life to protect Snape, or b) Dumbledore knew that he was dying anyway from the mysterious liquid, and realised that dying sooner than later would save Sanpe, and also strengthen his position with the other Death Eaters.

And, of course, there's the fact that Dumbledore never actually pleaded for his life. Yes, he said, "Severus, please", but that could just have easily been begging Snape to do what was neccessary.


Though, going back to the Unbreakable Vow, something that I only just noticed - the Vow reads, "If it seems Draco will fail, will you carry out the deed that the Dark Lord has ordered Draco to perform?", to which Snape replies, "I will". Nowhere in the Vow, or even the chapter, does it actually say that the 'deed' referenced is killing Dumbledore. Maybe significant, maybe just me reading too much into things, I don't know. But... I may have just invalidated my own argument. :erm:

 

[PTeppic]

Originally posted by little smaug
Though, going back to the Unbreakable Vow, something that I only just noticed - the Vow reads, "If it seems Draco will fail, will you carry out the deed that the Dark Lord has ordered Draco to perform?", to which Snape replies, "I will". Nowhere in the Vow, or even the chapter, does it actually say that the 'deed' referenced is killing Dumbledore. Maybe significant, maybe just me reading too much into things, I don't know. But... I may have just invalidated my own argument. :erm:

It could be that the task was simply to facilitate the entry into the school. Which would also have been potentially tricky, though why it would generate the heartache that Moaning Myrtle frequently saw, since Draco is apparently known to dislike Dumbledore for his MudBlood (and pro-Potter) tendencies.

Another thought, if an Unbreakable Vow is made with a non-knowledge of the task being performed then what happens and is it enforceable?

 

[Dave]

Please do continue!

I'll change the thread title to include (Spoilers for Half Blood Prince) which should protect those who only watch the films.

 

[little smaug]

Cheers Dave.

Originally posted by PTeppic
Another thought, if an Unbreakable Vow is made with a non-knowledge of the task being performed then what happens and is it enforceable?

A good point. Perhaps if the task is not specified, then the Vow would only apply to what Snape thought it was referring to?

Originally posted by PTeppic ...why it would generate the heartache that Moaning Myrtle frequently saw, since Draco is apparently known to dislike Dumbledore for his MudBlood (and pro-Potter) tendencies.

I always assumed that the reason Draco was so upset was because he was facilitating the slaughter of his teachers and school mates. And even if it was just because he had to kill Dumbledore, there's a lot of difference between disliking someone and actually murdering them. After all, Draco is only 16. Whilst he does talk about death and destruction in a casual manner, I would suspect that most of it is false bravado.


Another point that may add weight to the 'Dumbledore is not dead' theory - what about the phoenix shape that erupts from his tomb? Dumbledore's patronus was a phoenix, and I think that just saying it was part of a wizarding funeral is too easy. Any theories on that?

 

[PTeppic]

Originally posted by little smaug
Another point that may add weight to the 'Dumbledore is not dead' theory - what about the phoenix shape that erupts from his tomb? Dumbledore's patronus was a phoenix, and I think that just saying it was part of a wizarding funeral is too easy. Any theories on that?

I can't remember having a "proper" wizarding funeral elsewhere in the book so we don't know what it is actually normal. It is interesting to think that the magic somehow escapes or flies free after death in the shape of your patronus. But you're right - here I think it's just theatricals.

 

[bookaholic]

wow, little smaugs idea is cool,ive never thought about that!