6.20: Villians

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obcooke

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6.20 Villians

Tara is gone and, in a way, so is Willow. You can't tell the good guys from the villians anymore as the Scoobies, or what's left of them, deal with their grief in different ways.
 
oooooooooook -

Marti Noxon episode -

I should just not look at the tv when the credits roll over so I don't see this stuff - b/c you do know what I'm gonna say, right?

severe lack of Spike - yes yes, he's 'out of the country,' that does not, however, mean that he should be 'out of the episode' (yes, this really bothers me - esp when we get 1 full minute of the ambulance driving to Buffy's house, but only, a total, of 3 1/2 to 4 minutes of Spike story)

okay - done w/ the Spike rant, back to the episode --

Well, hmmm, let's see - 1st - no one even knew about Tara, aside from Willow, until Dawn came home - okay -dramatic effect - fine -

there was something else I found really weird - but I can't remember it right now -

one thing I noticed, b/c I notice these things - the spatter pattern on Willow's shirt changed from the time btwn when Tara was shot and Willow caught her - hmmm - (continuity error)

but - we didn't see anyone investigate the bullet trajectory, or anything -- do the cops just do nothing in this town? Fire and rescue does more --

The chat Xander, Dawn, and Buffy had in the living room about the 'natural world' and the 'demonic world' was nice tho - very well done (see, I can say nice things about Marti's eps) -

So, from what I got, Dawn doesn't, yet, know that Spike almost raped Buffy - and Buffy apparently doesn't want Dawn to know - I guess I can understand that, but why does no one ever want to tell Dawn anything? She's 16 (appearance and mentality wise) - not a child of 5 - I think she can handle most of this. Yes, she's reacting badly to the death of Tara, wouldn't you? but she can still handle this stuff. I honestly hope they do tell her at some point, tho, Xander is the only one who knows right now. Buffy's kept too many secrets, she needs to stop before she loses all of her friends.

Next: Buffy needs Spike - and guess what? He's not there. "He's all we've got." she said - well, actually - you don't have him. Finally, the one time Buffy goes to him for help and he can't help - b/c he's not there. (Took 'em long enough)

Can we please get rid of the 'Trio'?

Oh, right, we're working on that (shoulda been done long ago, IMO). But that scene in the demon bar where Warren's bragging and no one's heard of his little troupe, and then all the demons laugh at him b/c he really didn't kill the Slayer! too funny!! 'Bout time too.


Okay - time for it - Spike's itty bitty teeny tiny little scene - lovin' the continuity w/ the Zippo lighter! (and the fact that since James quit smoking they don't have Spike lighting up every other minute - when's the last time Spike had an on-screen cigarette?) I almost had to say something, but that wind was pretty strong, I guess (mostly, I'll allow this one for dramatic effect) but Zippo's are supposedly 'wind proof' - means it takes a bit of a gust to blow 'em out. I'm not 100% on those pictographs tho (Daniel Jackson would have a FIELD day trying to decipher them tho) - I'm guessing they mean something, and we MIGHT find out what they mean in the next episode or two - depending on how much time they decided to devote to Spike and his 'trials'. Had to laugh tho - that big demon thing basically called Spike a wimp - just one of those things, no one does that - 'cept this guy.


I'll have to watch this again (like I always do) to get the rest - most of it is a big whirlwind, and I spent the last 20 minutes growling at the tv b/c Spike wasn't gonna show up again -

oh - and how gross was Willow flaying Warren? That was disgusting - effective, but disgusting...
 
last post was long enough, and I remembered what was buggin' me --

Willow goes to the Magic Box and asks Anya 'Where do you keep the black arts books?" Um, doesn't Wil already know where they're kept? She's been to the MB several times - she should know - but anyway --

the 'sucking the info out of the books' was interesting - kinda done before, but interesting --


What exactly did Rack do for or to Warren? I was a bit confused there - b/c Warren didn't really do anything - he had a few magic tricks, but that seemed to be about it - is that what he got?

okay - think that's all for now.
 
DITTO!
I guess you've seen the 2nd to the last eppy.
next week looks great (even though i hate willow& buffy doing battle)
okay,I'm going to have to watch it again to really get all the details.
but,? didn't spike flick a cigarette as he drove off in last weeks eppy? I'll have to go back and check.
bye 4 now
 
I agree with Highlander about the way Buffy treats Dawn -- Buffy was out being a Slayer at 16, she could at least treat Dawn with a little respect, considering all that Dawn has seen and been through. Sure, if I was Buffy I probably wouldn't tell her about the almost-rape, but this constant telling Dawn to 'not worry her purdy liddle head over the bad stuff and go play with her dolls' (metaphorically speaking) is wearing kinda thin.

Really loved the wicked Willow - that girl is downright scary when she's pissed. Flaying Warren was gross and really satisfying. And that bit of sending the bullet into him slowly, and him *still* not getting that he's evil -- very nice. I also really liked the effect of her sucking the words out of the magic books. But that part about Willow asking for the black magic books bothered me too. Guess it was just a way to make it obvious to the more casual viewer why she was there.

Yeah, the police in Sunnydale are apparently terminally stupid.
 
yeah, Principal Snyder (way back b4 he was eaten by the Mayor) said the police are 'deeply stupid' (Think it was in "School Hard")
and they are - the SPD are really bad about a lot of things --


and I blame the writers for the audience's dislike of Dawn - personally, I like the character, but I tend to cling to the 'underdogs' - the ones who don't get any stories - Dawn, Spike, Data, Bashir, Reed (I could go on, but I won't) --

if the writers would stop ignoring her and use her as a character instead of a whiny squeeze box - we'd be okay - her character has such great potential! they could do so much with her - esp since now she's about the only person who still likes Spike - (mostly b/c she doesn't know anything, she'll hate him again as soon as she finds out what he almost did to Buffy) - but, there is an interesting 'link' btwn Dawn and Spike - he's kinda been a surrogate 'big brother' to her since Glory started looking for her - every time Buffy needed someplace for Dawn to go - she took her to Spike; Dawn goes missing, Buffy asks Spike to help find her - etc etc etc...


oh and "Bored now" -- thought that was an interesting choice, as it harkens back to "The Wish" w/ vamp Willow before she tortured the 'puppy' (Angel) -
 
[Highlander II: severe lack of Spike - yes yes, he's 'out of the country,' that does not, however, mean that he should be 'out of the episode' (yes, this really bothers me - esp when we get 1 full minute of the ambulance driving to Buffy's house, but only, a total, of 3 1/2 to 4 minutes of Spike story)]

Okay, a whole lot has been said, but this kind of jumped out at me. I don't want to start an argument, but this kind of thinking bugs me for some reason. I guess because it kind of shows a slavish devotion to "stopwatch" thinking that can get in the way of telling the story.

I mean, think about it. Spike is on a quest. One that is so mysterious and vague that, even though I have read all the spoilers, I still can't be sure what he is seeking.

<I will avoid spoilers and exam the question using only current info.>

What do we really need to know about his quest?

1 - It takes him away right before Willow's meltdown.

2 - It's difficult, apparently involving a trial by ordeal.

3 - He's seeking to change himself.

4 - At the end, we need to know if he passed or failed.

THAT'S IT! How long does it take to tell us that?

I don't care about the details, although a lot of people are curious how he got to Africa so fast - on a motorcycle!

His lack of screen time during the crisis is not a flaw in the story - IT IS THE STORY! He is SUPPOSED to be "out of the episode".

This is foreshadowing and the more vague and mysterious, the better. This is the setup. We are supposed to be wondering what he is doing. We are being left out of the action on purpose to build our suspense.

Put aside your obsession with tracking the actors and just let Joss & Co. tell the story their way without faulting them for, IMHO, no good reason.

Besides, Anya got about the same amount of time and I don't hear you standing up for her. You didn't always complain when the only thing Tara had to do was stand beside Willow and nod her head.

Come on, H2. I'm not trying to come down on you but it just seems like your habit of checking the time is causing you to miss the point of the story.

Besides, I'm still a little frustrated myself at not being able to figure out what he is up to.
 
oh - I don't actually *clock* the amount of time ppl get - I'm not that much of a stickler -- my figures were an estimated time - and it was done after I watched the ep - I didn't sit at the tv and watch the counter on the VCR - I was paying attention to the story -

and I wanna know how he got to Africa so quickly -- was talking to a friend about that this morning -- that was weird -

about Anya -- well - she's not particularly one of my favorite characters -- not that I don't pay attention to her, but she used to really annoy me, so I didn't care how much she was there - however, that's changed a little bit - and she has a fair share of things going on - not necessarily in this episode - but she had a storyline following her - she and Xander were going to get married - and now they're not - mini-story arc for those two worked into the bigger picture -

Tara - she had a bit too - she and Willow were dealing with Willow's magic addiction - so, no, I didn't pick much when she was only standing there nodding - but Tara's a different character - she's shy and quiet - Spike is loud

There is no such arc for Spike, or Dawn (and the Spike/Buffy love affair doesn't count)


me - personally - I do wanna know what Spike's trials are gonna be and what he's after - he mentioned the chip, but did he really go to this demon guy to get it out, or is he looking for something else?

I like character development - and it's severely lacking for many of the characters - including Tara and Anya - We have what, one episode about Tara's background? And not much more about Anya - we just know she was a venegance demon, now she is again - oh, and that bit about the Troll guy -

I could go back through all the episodes and pick out places where certain ppl are missing or have little screen time - the thing is, (and this is probably why I notice it so much) we don't know what Spike is doing or up to, b/c we, the audience are just as 'in the dark' as the Scoobies - not that the Scoobies would know if he was doing anything anyway. But, instead of keeping the audience and the rest of the cast in the dark, fill in the audience - I like it when I know stuff the other characters don't --

I know I pick -- a lot -- it's just the way I am - when I watch TV - my mind analyzes almost everything - it's the way my mind works - I can't really be idle - drives me crazy - so, I focus on stuff -

I could also tell you that when Willow walks into the Magic Box, if you look closely in the case that Anya stands behind, just to the left of the 'Please do not lean on glass' sign, there is a red and black box that has the word "United" on it - this is a United Cutlery box - United Cutlery is a maker/distributor of knives and such. My best guess is that this box (if there's anything actually IN it) houses a dagger of some kind. Since I can't see the edge of the box, I can't tell you which dagger or knife. (Oh, and I didn't catch this until my 2nd viewing of the episode, so I don't catch everything the 1st time through.)

I will, however, admit that I wasn't expecting much of Spike in this episode *b/c* Marti Noxon was credited with writing it, and I've come to learn that Spike doesn't tend to exist in her scripts. It's just one of those things, so I suppose my rant was more at her writing style than at the fact that Spike wasn't there much. If one of the other writers had written, I might not have said as much. So, I was prepared to rant before I even saw the episode. It's just me.
 
How do you know Spike was in Africa? For some reason I thought he was in the Carribbean somewhere - mind you my roomates were blabbering away all through the ep, so I probably missed something obvious. It would help explain how he got there so quickly though.
 
guess we don't *really* know --

tho the writings on the 'tents' and the pictographs on the wall seemed to point more toward African than Carribean - (but I could be totally off on this as I'm not an archeaologist)

and I guess we might be making assumptions based on the spoilers ---

<shrug> guess he could be somewhere else>
 
Yes, I'm afraid that I did slip that bit of spoiler info in.

Since I knew where it was supposed to be, I just assumed that everyone else got the location from the scene, but reviewing it I realize that it isn't obvious. I apologize, but I'm not going to gray it out, since the location isn't really germaine to the story.

See, everyone slips occasionally. Thanks for pointing it out, it reminds me that I have to be more careful.

If you want to know more about the location of the scene read the spoiler below:

The scene is supposed to take place in an African desert, but with the nighttime lighting, you can't make out the desert. If you could, you could probably eliminate the Carrib. In fact, it's the same desert that the Season Four scenes with the First Slayer were filmed.

In fact, I think the only reason that they didn't do the ordeal in Sunnydale is to emphasize the fact the help was available but Spike didn't leave to seek it out.
 
Ah that explains it! I can't see that particular spoiler really 'spoiling' that much though. :cool:
 
Well, is that the end of Willow or are we going to be seeing a lot more of evil vengence Willow? Hope so - the whole gothic, super powerful thing did wonders for Willow (even if she did remind me of Terminator - just walking through all obstacles in search of her prey). I've always liked the idea of a split in the Scoobies, and that seems to be exactly whats happening, although it could be described more as a shattering of the Scoobs.

Spike - hope they show him going through the trials talked about in last episode. I take it this is the demon equivalent of the PTB - it sounds a lot like the trials Angel went through to try and restore Darla to life. Probably the most promising element of the storyline at the moment - will he be restored to his chipless demon self? Probably but will he be emotionally capable of going back to the blood sucking fiend? As I've already said, I can't see him biting someone he's become close to e.g. Dawn. I guess we'll find out soon if his change is for real or not. I wasn't disappointed by his lack of screen time in this eppy as I didn't really expect him to be in at all. And H2, looks like Spike might get a storyline after all, even if it is a bit late in the day.

Tara - sorry she's dead and all that, but I'd rather it was her and not another character. Besides she never did seem to have the aura of one who was destined for the longhaul, a bit like Riley (thank god!)

Dawn - I don't really blame Buffy for trying to protect Dawn, you would probably do the same thing yourself if it was your baby sis, but hello, Dawn's supposed to have a bit of the rebel in her e.g. the five fingered discount, conjuring up musical demons, sneaking out with boys when supposed to be sleeping over at a friends etc., you'd think she would try and get in on the action a bit, be a bit more forceful or just join Buffy even if not allowed. I mean, she's incredibly passive when her sister and friend's lives are at risk.
 
Dawn is a bit passive --

but, it was Xander who called the musical demon (IIRC - I've only seen OMWF once)


Dawn does need to be a bit more aggressive - and she's made good points - when Buffy and her friends were 15/16 they were out fighting demons and vampires and such, but Dawn gets sheltered. Why couldn't Dawn go with them? I know Buffy wants to protect her, but the world isn't all candy and nuts - it's hard and scary and there are demons, and since Dawn knows about them, wouldn't it be better if she had some idea of how to fight them than for her to just run scared all the time?


Spike: Here's my gripe - they have no idea what to do with him. I've been watching the whole series from the beginning (skipping a few choice episodes that are kinda slow and boring, like 'Ted') and just got to 'The Harsh Light of Day' - Now, this is Spike's 1st ep of season 4, and he's featured fairly prominently as he is searching for the Gem of Amarra, but then (IIRC) he's not even in the next episode, "Fear Itself," and it's not really a problem - why? b/c the story was finished - he found the gem, lost the gem, chased the gem, ran away - period. Fine. But ever since they stuck him in the regular credits, they haven't done anything like that w/ the exception of the Buffy Bot ("Intervention") - and that's the biggest problem.

And, in all honesty, when I was complaining about Spike not being in the episode, it was more b/c Marti Noxon wrote it and she has a tendency to only use certain characters, than the fact that he wasn't in the story - he didn't fit, and that wasn't really my problem - I've just come to expect 'Spike-light' in Marti's eps -- just a personal thing that I should probably get over, but for some reason can't ----

I did like this episode, and hope I haven't given the impression that I didn't, but there were some other things that needed tying up that didn't really get 'tied' - the Anya/Spike thing - but that could be coming later (tho I have no idea when) - and I think there was something else but it's slipped my mind now...
 
WOW H2 your descriptions are great. What else can I add to this? I did not like Tara very much to begin with but she warmed to me or me to her (whatever). She will be missed by me. Willow was fantastic, loved it when she 'read' the Dark Arts books by emerging her hands into them. Wish I could read that quick. Warren was kinda funny when trying to boast he'd killed the slayer when in fact Buffy was OK. The vampires in the bar made me laugh when telling him that Willow was on the warpath, the look on his face. Hahaha!!!!! Also Spike, what is happening with him? Is he trying to find a way to remove his chip with the aid of the demon in parts unknown?

Glad to see Buffy trusting Spike with Dawn.

What a way to go at the end, what with the bullet and from what I could gather being turned inside out. Ewwwwwwwww!!!!!!!! Willows Bored now!!!!! was brilliant. Watch out, watch out Willows about!!!!!!!!


annette :D
 
[Annette: Willows Bored now!!!!! was brilliant.]

"Bored now." is what vamipre-Willow says before she hurls Percy across the Bronze in #50 Doppelgängerland. In fact, she was most dangerous when she was bored.

How about that Highlander II? Do the writers get points for continuity on that one?

What ever you do, don't let evil Willow get bored!
 
obcooke-->
"Bored now." is what vamipre-Willow says before she hurls Percy across the Bronze in #50 Doppelgängerland. In fact, she was most dangerous when she was bored.

How about that Highlander II? Do the writers get points for continuity on that one?

What ever you do, don't let evil Willow get bored!
Click to expand...


Yes - they get points for continuity on that - and it's double continuity - b/c Vamp Willow said it in "The Wish" too - so, ok, Marti gets a point - but only one.

And I *so* agree - never let evil Willow get bored!
 
Have a very Buffy Christmas!

UPN is broadcasting this episode on Christmas Eve at 9pm following "Normal Again".

If you're tired of Xmas cheer this is the show for you.

Remember watch out for the part where Willow gets bored.
 
Ok, I've just been watching this episode again, and something occured to me.

It's always been said that Buffy died twice, right? In "Prophecy Girl" and in "The Gift". But when Buffy is at the hospital, and hooked up to the machines, her heart stops, cos the line on the beepy machine goes flat (like my technical jargon?:p). So wouldn't that technically count as dying? After all, if stopping breathing is counted as dying, you'd think her heart stopping would definately count.

What do you think? Comments, opinions, anyone? :D
 
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