Point of Origin - Possible Use

[PTeppic]

It has been discussed in other threads whther or not the Point of Origin (POO) chevron is actually needed during the dialling sequence. I have myself insisted that there is no real need, since the originating gate knows who/where it is.

Under my original thinking, the telephone system is a suitable analogy. We don't add our own phone number on the end, each time we dial.

But thinking about it more, this shows the weakness in the theeory, perhaps. A phone system has a series of physical wires, and the exchanges do the interconnecting. The exchange therefore knows what the number is of the dialling phone, but even then, this is not needed, since a PHYSICAL connection is being made.

With the gate system, it is probably safe to say that there is no physical connection being made. Therefore either radio hams or the internet is needed as a better analogy. A signal is sent out, with a destination reference/code but ALSO a return address, so the destination can send a reply.

Now, we have also concluded in different other threads that each gate can deduce where in the galaxy it is, so that it can constantly monitor and change, as a result of universal expansion. Therefore, the gate itself can add the "return address" to any protocol message, without intervention from the dialling person. Therefore, any person, on finding a stargate can dial out, as long as they know the single POO glyph - they never need to know the full six-sequence chevron address, unless they want to dial back in themselves from elsewhere. [Of course they will still need to know the six-glyph address of where they are going!]

So far so good - this still supports the "POO is not needed" argument, or rather, doesn't give any need for them.

BUT, what if the Ancients devised the gate system for maximum flexibility, and actually allowed for DHD-free dialling, such as with hand-devices, or even manually? Under these circumstances there is no final "big red GO button" which we have with the DHD, and which form the most obvious "dial now" signal.

The point: for non-DHD dialling, the POO glyph marks the end of the dialling sequence, allowing for variable length (7, 8 or even 9) glyph addresses, but still having a known terminator. Therefore it does have a raison d'etre.

 

[shazstar]

You just read my answer to the gates - all in contact thread!!!!!!

And you proved me wrong too, I forgot about the big red go button.

The P.O.O is essentially the area code for the dialling gate.

To put it simply, why wouldn't this area code be the identification of wormhole origin to the destination gate? The 6 glyph pairs once dialled only identify the destination address, and to get an established wormhole you would need direction or the point of origin to acheive a stable and directed wormhole.

Otherwise the wormhole could be arriving from anywhere, from any gate.

 

[PTeppic]

a) Because if the gate network knew that the Earth glyph meant Earth, why are they bothering with all these fancy 6-point addresses. They just dial up the Earth glyph to get to Earth.

b) But the return address part I think I covered - it needs to be added by the gate, since it needs to be able to change the address when the address changes as a result of galactic drift.

 

[shazstar]

ok then, so the 6 glyphs are needed as variables for stellar drift. But the P.O.O is constant for each planet.

Hmmmm are you saying then, that this is the reason as to why the P.O.O is NOT the essential directrix, or vector origin for the wormhole?

 

[PTeppic]

I think it is probably safe to assume that the P.O.O. is constant for any planet, yes.

As for your second question - I have no idea. I don't understand it!

I think I was trying to say, since they have a single glyph that can represent a planet, why not just dial up that one glyph as the detsination?

Answer: limited space on the gates. There are currently 38 destination glyphs and one P.O.O. on the gate, which under my questions suggestion, would only allow 38 possible destinations for the gate. So each gate would perhaps only allow it to contact the nearest gates. Any long travel would have to be in stages, going always to the furthest away en route.

Ah, and continuining to think out loud....

I have suggested in some other threads that you COULD specify a single point in 3-d space using only 4 points of reference, i.e. 4 chevrons. Mathematically it would still be pin-point accurate. However, that would "only" give you 1,771,560 possible destinations from the 38 glyphs. By using the fuller (and lets face it, more aesthetically pleasing and much easier for the sometimes dumb audience to understand) 6 point glyph address system, there are a massive 1,987,690,320 possible address. Of course, these are just theoretical and probably more than half (if not most) don't actually have gates because there is no planet at that point in space.

Edit: As a result of my ramblings in Chevron Order I point out that there are actually 48 valid permutations of glyphs for each single gate address, so in fact the above numbers are not accurate. They should read 36,907 and 41,410,215 respectively

But this has ignored the P.O.O. I think for the P.O.O. I was trying to say two things:
a) yes it DOES represent the origin gate, BUT it can't be sent as itself, because
i) the receiving gate may not even have that chevron,
ii) that would mean it would need to know the full six glyph address for that single source chevron
iii) it would mean knowing the addresses for ALL the gates in the system, which would not allow knew gates to be added, unless it was reconfigurable

b) a better method would be
i) the P.O.O. chevron is entirely symbolic (for the local planet)
ii) it is simply so that frequent flyers will be able to recognise it (although they do seem to use the ordinary constellation glyphs half the time!)
iii) it is the final chevron in an address sequence to mark the end of the address
__A) to show that an 8 or 9 chevron address is not in use
__B) to be the terminator for when a DHD is not in use
iv) the gate will actually send its own six-glyph address as part of the protocol, which as I think you said, the destination will need in order to return any part of the protocol messages, and also to initiate the wormhole. It also allows new gates into the system, and allows for stellar drift. It also (of course) means that the traveller doesn't need to know the address of the planet they are on, just of where they want to go, since the gate does all this bit automatically. [This compares to internet IP packets, which contain the source as well as destination address, as well as the message, or even ham radio, which uses source and destination call-signs, during the conversation phase, and in fact only the source, during call-setup, though this asks for ANY contact.]

Hmm, that last analogy offers up an (intriguing?) fanfic opportunity: an as yet unused/unseen DHD feature (or even stand-alone gadget/device) for an "emergency" gate mode: a literal broadcast request - "connect to me now please, I am at glyph address 1,2,3,4,5,6 and I need ANY gate, quickly, now" to which the first gate not already with a wormhole, or buried, can respond and establish a wormhole. This may or may not be the physically nearest in the network, due to the buried/engaged factor and also they are connecting via another dimension, where distance may work differently anyway!

 

[shazstar]

Absolutely agree with the "more glyphs-more gates" theory.
With my earlier question, completly discard it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I stuffed it up.

Just as a matter of interest, is it possible for there to be 2 (or more) gates on different planets with the same p.o.o? Meaning have we seen this in the series.

 

[PTeppic]

Well, it would certainly be a limiting factor to the system if not.
Although we hardly see the gates/DHDs at all anyway, when we do, there are rarely any new glyphs, perhaps half a dozen or so in all, in addition to those on the Earth gate. Which sort of limits the travel to probably LESS than the planets they have already visited!!

But, if see any dialling, it is generally OUT, and not back.

Of course, my own personal theory is that the symbol on the POO is irrelevant, and could be the same on each and every DHD, since all it means is P.O.O. The only purpose is (ooh, thinking aloud again) to ensure that only those who are old enough get to successfully use the gate... i.e. any primitive tribes/locals who perhaps watch enlightened and wise travellers use the DHD can't just press a few buttons and get it to work for themselves. By making it SLIGHTLY harder to spot the POO on each DHD you slow down the spread of people who may not quite have the knowledge they require for visiting other worlds.

[There is someone who claims to have all the known addresses, but I can't remember who it is. Sorry to both of you!]

 

[shazstar]

I am still inclined to consider the p.o.o as relevant in that it directs the wormhole by identifying the direction to which the wormhole is going BY the relative p.o.o.

Explanation: the first six glyphs identify a point in space. So, the wormhole knows WHERE to go, BUT doesn't know how to get there, from where the origin gate is situated. In other words, (and I am gonna take a plunge and go into a major arguement here) the embarking gate DOES NOT know its own position relative to other gates. So the P.O.O is a symbol that identifies the direction the wormhole needs to go. It is RELATIVE to other gates, so therefore, there can be more than one gate with the same P.O.O. So once the destination is verified, the gate needs to know its own location before it can establish a wormhole. The P.O.O, being a symbol that is relative to other gates, and can identify an approximate location in space, tells the gate that this is where they are relative to the destination, and then the direction vector is established, 7th chevron locked, and wormhole engaged.

Voila??? Probably not, I thought of this at work, but I don't know how well I explained it. In summary I am suggesting that the P.O.O works by relative positioning of galactic regions.

 

[PTeppic]

Possible, but I personally think unlikely.
I believe the only way to get around the stellar drift issue (and a few other things) is to have each gate constantly/intermitently re-work out their own co-ordinates. [This may even mean for periods of time they are OUTSIDE the gate system (but only insofar as no valid co-ordinates can reach them).] Therefore the dialling gate will always know where itself is. It also needs to know that "it" is the one being dialled by any incoming wormhole. Therefore what you suggest is still valid - it is a marker for "the home address" but not with as much importance as you put on it.

PS Any repluy will be in a week when I get back from a holiday. We don't have them on Reetalia, but you humans see to value them, so Mrs Ambassador and I are going to try out the theory.

 

[Tiberius]

Do you know how in the Stargate movie, the Abydos Chappa'ai had different Glyphs than the Earth gate? Well, maybe each gate has a unique POO because not all of them have the exact same glyphs... Is it possible?

 

[PTeppic]

Yup - that was sort of assumed - though we rarely see (in practice) the different glyphs on these other worlds - they don't have the resources for the extra props or modifications.

There are (of course) exceptions: the P.O.O. on The Gamekpeer's planet.

I wonder if the "mobile" Stargate prop (when used for Abydos) matches the glyphs show on the Abydos gate in the movie?

 

[shazstar]

just to clarify, do we know exactly how many glyphs there are????? if its been said before i think I missed it.

 

[PTeppic]

39 unique ones from the earth gate, plus:
unique P.O.O. glyphs for
Abydos, TheGamekeeperPlanet, and possibly Chulak

There may be others which I don't recall - and I'm on holiday so can't check - yes this is a VERY sad way to be on holiday!

 

[shu_hunter]

Sorry, PTeppic, but there are 38 glyphs and a PoO, making 39 glyphs. They fit fine on a stargate, but on a DHD it messes up the alignment of the inner and outer rings so they took out Aquila and it fit perfectly. Although, that reduces the number of adresses a gate can dial to by 6(?), so it wasn't said out loud. But I know it's true - look at any DHD pic and you won't find Aquila (looks like a V with a tail).
Anyway - if the stargate really DID exist, then i think a DHD Gate would only need to dial 6 destination glyphs and then the Big Red Button, and that would engage an active wormhole. But for manual dialers, an additional protocol would need to be added, and that's the PoO - to tell the gate it's the end of the sequence and to "find itself".
I believe the DHD has more significance then just dialing the gate. But whatever. Anyway, ..........................I forgot what I was going to say. Well, there you have it - my opinion - please feel free to tear it apart.

~Shu Hunter
:upto: stargate fan{atic}

 

[PTeppic]

When it comes to the DHD, some of them clearly use true address glyphs as P.O.O. chevrons, so they can be used interchangeably...

 

[Tiberius]

When one maunally dials... How do they escape the huge fluxuation that occurs when a wormhole is first open? It happens immediately, no time to jump away.

 

[PTeppic]

DHD - I imagine they just have to pick 37 of the appropriate glyphs for each DHD, plus the local P.O.O. This of course then leads us to the logical conclusion that not all the network may be reachable from any specific Stargate... however, I would imagine that very few of the non-Earth-Stargate glyphs appear elsewhere other than as P.O.O. This reduces the problems of gates not being able to reach all the other points on the network.

Manual dialling - generally they seem to stand just to the outside of the gates, which a) lets them avoid the vortex and b) get the leverage needed to pull down the inner ring required for manual dialling. It also seems to take a second or two anyway, which gives them a moment to move sideways. Most action heros seem to try out-running omcoming danger - here is one example of simply side-stepping out of the way being much more sensible!!!

 

[shazstar]

Ok, I brought it back to this thread pteppic!


ok.....

Originally posted by PTeppic
I am saying the ones we have seen appear to be constellations on the Earth gate (but for sci-fi show budget reasons) and I may have missed one or two other non-constellation ones: someone here claims to have all the addresses ever seen, which would help around now!, BUT, my point [in that other thread! :evil: ] is that theoretically, the VAST majority are actually the other way round, i.e. diagrammatic!!

WHOA! back up! Could you explain that to a slightly confused me! I think I missed th point entirely! What do you mean by the vast majority? of what? Glyphs? diagrammatic of what? Sorry, I may have missed a post or two I think!!!!!

To ensure that all gates can travel to all other gates (a fundamental requirement??) they would all have to use the same glyphs, which means NOT using lots of special P.O.O. glyphs that appear all over the place, like the Earth P.O.O. - which does. I think this is just not thinking about the consequences and therefore technical non-continuity!a) since the above summary was the wrong way round, this hijacks the whole point - sorry!

How do you mean the wrong way around? Now I know I missed a post!

And, if it is not tech non-continuity, why so many different glyphs?
I am still hanging on to this idea that somehow, (and, most likely not through the P.O.O as you have argued) any gate dialling out MUST have some kind of mechanism or protocolo that DIRECTS the wormhole. Somehow, the origin gate must be able to determine their own position, the destination position, AND the destination position in relation to their own. In other words, somehow the wormhole is given direction. Otherwise the wormhole could be coming from anywhere, and displacement could not be defined? Could the different P.O.O glyphs be representative of the relative gates/constellations? in example using numbers or codes as definition, gate 356 wants to send a wormhole to gate 478. As the dialling up begins, the P.O.O is determined and somehow using the gate of origin and the gate of destination, the wormhole determines that the relative difference is 112, and so can send? Bad analogy but somewhere somehow I am positive that the difference and relative positions of gates are important.

b) in any case, NO. The non-constellation glyphs are pictorial representations of the PLANETS, and are described as thus in the film, which in this case I think stays valid. The Giza gate glyph is a pyramid with the sun over-head, the Antarctic one is a gate on a horizontal base (perhaps to indicate the first ever gate), the Gamekeeper one is the man's own peculiar spiral [though this MAY be a later amendment by him!]EXCEPT that for dialling back INTO Earth the P.O.O. is "irrelevant" and changes for every single planet, we can assume. The relevant part is the 6-glyph constellation part, which defines a 3D stellar position, allowing for stellar drift. The use of the P.O.O. is covered by other threads.
Also, anyone travelling from any planet to Earth may not know the Earth P.O.O. - they don't actually need it until they intend to leave again - and not if a ship is coming for them! After all, in most SG-1 missions they won't know the P.O.O. until they get to the planet.

Ok. the part about the p.o.o being irrevelent, I would assume that actually reinforces my insistant and nagging theory about the gate's working in relative terms. Obviously if I was to travel to Netu and you were to travel to Chulak, the relative direction and difference between those planets and Earth would be different. Its like you flying to LA from Ohio, and me flying to LA from Sydney, the flight paths are totally different, and so are the compasses! Your plane is flying in a totally opposite direction to mine. And so....the directions (as in maps)are different. (I am a shocker at analogy's, but I am determined to argue my point!)
If not the P.O.O being the variable for the determining of relative position between gates....then what else could do it? And so what is the P.O.O for......I am finding it incredibly difficult to believe its completely nothing, there for decoration, if we take the gate idea away from the show and all its tech incontinuity, WHAT is the P.O.O. for?

if most of the P.O.O. are constellations, then there are either only 38 gates in use (ludicrous? we have probably seen that many in 100+ episodes), each constellation is used more than once (possible? but confusing, and negates your point), or there are loads more constellations used as P.O.O. (but if also used as a destination constellations, we get the massive problem of non-addressability - it would be like having batches of telephones that missed out one of the digits 0-9, since "there was only room for nine digits on the key-pad": perhaps 1/10th of all numbers would not be diallable!!)

I'm still mulling over this......trying to work it out in my head, I keep flying off on tangents!

be back to you soon.

Hope I haven't completly thrown the ball out of the court and confused, angered or seriously contradicted anyone!

 

[PTeppic]

You have replied to the wrong thread - your reply is actually against this one, which should itself have been against this one!! Now WE are all confused. I will try to answer though, in a couple of hours(!).

 

[PTeppic]

Originally posted by shazstar
What do you mean by the vast majority? of what? Glyphs? diagrammatic of what?

I was talking about the remaining P.O.O. glyphs that are on the DHDs, that we don't see. We only see about 1/10 P.O.O. that are dialled - if that - so have to assume what they are. My full theory (in the other thread) expands on what I think they should be (i.e. symbolic, and not constellations).

How do you mean the wrong way around?

Your point (that I was quoting) appeared to me to be suggesting that all POO are actually constellations, but perhaps from a physical viewpoint not on Earth. I was saying that this was opposite to my view ("wrong way around"), and therefore didn't fit into the theory I was suggesting

And, if it is not tech non-continuity, why so many different glyphs?

That was my whole point!! [Summary - most POO glyphs are unique and not constellations, otherwise there would be gates not able to reach other gates, within the Stargate network]

I am still hanging on to this idea that somehow, (and, most likely not through the P.O.O as you have argued) any gate dialling out MUST have some kind of mechanism or protocolo that DIRECTS the wormhole. Somehow, the origin gate must be able to determine their own position, the destination position, AND the destination position in relation to their own. In other words, somehow the wormhole is given direction. Otherwise the wormhole could be coming from anywhere, and displacement could not be defined? Could the different P.O.O glyphs be representative of the relative gates/constellations? in example using numbers or codes as definition, gate 356 wants to send a wormhole to gate 478. As the dialling up begins, the P.O.O is determined and somehow using the gate of origin and the gate of destination, the wormhole determines that the relative difference is 112, and so can send? Bad analogy but somewhere somehow I am positive that the difference and relative positions of gates are important.

Why must it be directed? The wormhole is described (in "Solitudes") as being like a charged matter stream between two super-conductors. Like any energy "charge" it would be forced by physics to flow, and would not need directing. The hard bit is the trans-dimensional part, but the gate does that. Somehow. And we can suggest that it can be done easily, since communication transmissions are (apparently) done easily. The Stargate protocol (within the gates) sets up one to be "positive" (the origin) and "negative" the destination - after that it is just physics, and doesn't need any directing. That would also (sorry) pretty much negate any need for the "relative distance" thing you are suggesting. Within the vast scope of "normal" gate travel (i.e. within the "Fifth Race" extensions) the "charge" of the gate will simply flow + to -. Example: two ends of electrical flex with 1,000v across them. A few inches, and you'll get a spark (i.e. a gate travel). If you get too far apart (a few feet) then its just tooooo far, and no travel. Solution - whack it up to 1000000v, and bang you get travel (a spark!) again.

Ok. the part about the p.o.o being irrevelent, I would assume that actually reinforces my insistant and nagging theory about the gate's working in relative terms. Obviously if I was to travel to Netu and you were to travel to Chulak, the relative direction and difference between those planets and Earth would be different. Its like you flying to LA from Ohio, and me flying to LA from Sydney, the flight paths are totally different, and so are the compasses! Your plane is flying in a totally opposite direction to mine. And so....the directions (as in maps)are different. (I am a shocker at analogy's, but I am determined to argue my point!)
If not the P.O.O being the variable for the determining of relative position between gates....then what else could do it? And so what is the P.O.O for......I am finding it incredibly difficult to believe its completely nothing, there for decoration, if we take the gate idea away from the show and all its tech incontinuity, WHAT is the P.O.O. for?

The problem with the "relative distance" theory is that we are not just talking about our own 3D Newtonian space, but n-dimensional Stargate space. We have no idea how "close" Chulak and Netu are in these multiple dimensions. It may even change during time (since it does in our space - orbits)(and time is one of the dimensions).

What is the P.O.O. for - I thought I answered it (in this thread - back at last): for completing addresses, especially ones dialled without a DHD.