7.07: Conversations with Dead People

[obcooke]

I hear dead people.

Buffy, Willow and Dawn are visited by the dead. In Buffy's case - a vampiric psych-student, Willow receives a message from her lost beloved relayed by a very dead Cassie and Dawn gets a visit from the one that she misses the most.

Andrew also gets a visit from the one that he misses the most when the Three... I mean the Two Evil Nerds return to Sunnydale. Two to go... did I say Two? I meant Three... No wait, One to go?... oh, I give up, you figure it out.

 

[Highlander II]

Love the ep descrip there, ob!

Well 'It eats you and starts w/ your bottom.' - the funniest line in the ep! (actually - the only funny line in the ep - the rest was pretty dark)

But not dark in a bad way - dark in mood, but it was a very nicely done episode.

One question before I jump to everything else - where were Anya and Xander?

Anyway - back to the ep -- dig the taekwondo (sp?) psychologist / pyschiatrist-to-be turned vamp (pun intended) getting Buffy to talk about herself and her feelings - is there something in her contract that Buffy can only open up to vampires and dead/evil things? She used to talk to Spike a lot - until he got over-stalkery - but anyway ---

Dawn is a typical teenager - comes home, supposed to eat anything but pizza - but eats pizza anyway - 'anchovies, you're so delicious, I love you better than all the other fishes' (okay, so there was one other funny line)- and she's exploding marshmallows in the microwave - then she's attacked by whatever that was -- and boy is Buffy gonna be ****ed when she gets home --- that place was a wreck! And Dawn should have been doing her homework.

Willow - bored at school? Are we sure this is Willow? All right, who are you and what did you do with Willow? So, she's talking through Cassie to Tara and saying she misses her and such - but discovers that the only way to keep from killing everyone is to kill herself? Gotta say, to me, that would be a big tip-off - probably a big tip that *using magic* (of whatever flavor, but probably white) is the only way to stop whatever-the-heck-this-thing is from taking over Sunnydale --

the two nerds - driving back - and what happened to the big honkin' Sunnydale sign that Spike clobbered twice? Sunnydale get tired of rebuilding it, so they put up one of those tacky, boring green signs on the side of the road instead? Would have been funny if they had hit the sign anyway, but I digress - they know Klingon, but not 'Mexicoan' (typical nerd non-know-it-alls). Funny -- then they hit the HS and start digging in Spike's old hangout? Hmmmmm - and it's just under the principal's office - anyone wanna take a guess? I'm betting that big metal thing was the cap on the Hellmouth. And why the heck would Andrew want to open it? Or is he operating under the influence of Warren or the 'funky bad thing'?? lots of questions

And last, but so not least - Spike - they start us out w/ a semi-gloomy feeling - he's alone and sad-looking, and drinking his troubles away at the Bronze, but then some little blonde smacks a pack of smokes on the bar and sits down to talk - and talk they did. James did a wonderful job of looking like the 'boy next-door' walking down the sidewalk - and he didn't have a single spoken line - not one - and he was STILL excellent! (and no, not biased <eg>). Then, we're back w/ psycho-analysis Buffy and she slips and says 'Spike' - and the vamp (who's name I cannot remember) clues her in that Spike sired him - cut to Spike not having agreed to go up to blondie's place, but he rips her throat out instead -- ooooooopppss!! chip doesn't work anymore! And, apparently, Spike's soul isn't what Buffy thought it was gonna be (or he's also being controlled by the 'funky bad thing'). Oh, and is it just me, or was that 'mouth wipe' very reminiscent of "Fool For Love" after he killed the Boxer Rebellion Slayer? :evil:

Overall - really good ep - had a lot of forward movement - for everyone (except Xander and Anya - but they've had a bit in previous eps) - and movement of the plot --- and it's not all neatly tied up at the end - there's so much more that can happen - and OH it looked like Buffy was getting ready to head out and stake Spike, but good --- :evil: --- it would be a good fight - b/c I think he'd fight back - even with a soul...

I love bad boys <eg>

 

[tabuno]

A Potpourri of Horror Angles

Josh Whedon weaves together five different horror stories into this one episode, with the Dawn getting the most traditional horror plot with the Poltergiest experience and a rather questionable, dubious message from beyond the dead while Buffy is caught up in the comic psycho-babble which seems to get cut off suddenly. Willow is given the more subtle, Sixth Sense phenomenon with an darker twist while Spike is the most out of character of all - his silent motivation and break from the recent characterization the most odd and disturbing of all - in fact a bit too strange and unbelievable - the weakest part of the episode. People die in this episode again leading to both a humorous and darkly evil blending that Buffy is well known for. This new season continues to come up with new and creative energy keeping the series alive and kicking up the dust, not letting it to settle. Nobody is yet ready to kill this series off, far from it.

 

[obcooke]

Okay, this one had a lot of stuff in it. And its been a long time since I felt like writing so much about an ep. Much of it was key to the plot but it also had a lot of side references and "do you remember when" moments.

In the beginning...

Do you realize that this is only the second episode in Buffy history to have the title appear on the screen? (100 no-points to who can recall the first. No, that's too easy... 50 no-points.)

And what was with the Nov. 12, 2002 8:01pm? I think I know. There have been several moments this season when it seems that Buffy is spoofing other popular shows - was this week poking fun at "24"? Was the episode supposed to take place between 8:00pm and 9:00pm, in real time?

Willow - bored at school? Well, maybe she's finally out-growing her schoolgirl phase. Or perhaps she had Tara on her mind, which is why The Big Bad tried to get at her that way.

And H2, you gotta admire the continuity. Remember Cassie/Big-Bad's "strong like an Amazon" remark, which was straight out of "The Body", which was the episode where Joyce died!

I just wish that they had gotten Amber to do this one, it would have been so much more devastating than the Cassie stand-in. Boy, reality just shows up sometimes.

And the reference to Scott Hope - another character made gay in order to be the punchline to a bad joke. Oh, well.

You know, I'm trying hard to like Dawn. She had some good moments. She showed some courage, strength and some Buffy-eske pluck. But her voice is just too damn shrill. Even when Buffy loses it and screams, her voice doesn't pierce my skull, like Dawn's does. It's really hard for me to like someone who reaches the higher octives so often.

But one thing, like Xander and Willow, who don't want to be tempted by forbidden fruit, I think that that girl should stop wiggling her... eh, hips like that when she dances.

And we have the disembodied return of Kit as the girl on the other end of the phone as Dawn and her watch a movie "together".

When Joyce's body suddenly appeared on the couch behind Dawn was the only moment in all of Buffy history, when they actually gave me a chill. I've said repeatedly that most of Buffy's monsters don't really do it for me, but that was one scary moment. I guess because I wasn't really expecting such a classic "ghost story" moment.

And when did Dawn start casting spells?!?! I saw the Exorcist - even the priest died - but Dawn decides she's adept enough to force a strong demon from her house?

Of course, it was all just a sham. IF Willow shares her experience with the others, than they should all realize that they are being setup by The Big Bad to believe a bunch of lies.

I suspected that when I saw Warren. If The Big Bad masquerades as the dead Warren to confound Andrew, then probably all the other dead people were just another aspect of The Big Bad making mischief.

So The Big Bad was able to reach all the way to Mexico and the surviving Evil Nerds. One has to wonder who else will return.

The population sign - near as I can make out, the current population is 12,4?? and the elevation is 12... 12?... 12 what?... feet?...miles?

If the Evil Nerds were trying to find evidence of The Shield of Dangle-Star or whatever, why did Jonathan feel it necessary to uncover the entire thing? Wouldn't a small glimpse of it be enough?

Poor Jonathan, I'm going to miss him. Shouldn't one long-running character from Buffy's past survive? If EVERYONE eventually falls to evil than what good is it having a Slayer?

But I do think there's lots of funny lines you overlooked. Like when Dawn gets pizza sauce on one of Buffy's blouses, but figures its all right as long as Buffy thinks its blood. Or her putting holes in the walls while playing with a crossbow.

Oh, and the Nerds doing their goofy radio-check was cool.

And Holden "Webs" Webster had a lot of clever lines, in fact, he had the best "Buffy-quality" lines of the week, while he and Buffy were pal-ing around. "Buffy, I'm here to kill you, not to judge you."

I think they hit the right proportion of humor-to-horror in this one.

This seems to me to be the best written and directed episode of the season so far. Here's hoping that its part of an upward spiral to the finale.

 

[Highlander II]

Yeah - I went back and watched it again and caught a few more things in the 'funny line' department -- 1st time through I was paying more attention to the story --

Tabuno mentioned Spike being 'out of character' - well, actually he wasn't - he's still a vampire. Just b/c he has a soul doesn't make him a 'good guy' (how many times have I said that?). He doesn't become 'good' just b/c he has a soul. Angelus didn't - when he got his soul he still killed ppl - he was more selective, but he still killed. Remember, Spike hasn't had the opportunity to kill anyone, while he was still evil, in the last 3 years. Apparently the chip in his head has stopped working and he's 'making up for lost time'. Either that, or the lame interpretation - it was really the 'big funky evil' thing masquerading as Spike.

Also, Spike could, very well, be under the influence of the 'basement evil' (what are we gonna call this thing?) just like everyone else ---

We'll have to wait until next week to find out what exactly is going on (ie: promos for next week's ep appear to indicate the ep is semi-Spike-centered - but I'm not holding my breath - last time they indicated something like that, we got something else - so, wait and see)

 

[obcooke]

[Highlander II: ...Spike could, very well, be under the influence of the 'basement evil' (what are we gonna call this thing?)...]

There's only one thing to call it - THE BIG BAD.

That's not based on spoiler info, just my guess.

Last year they were real coy, but this year we are talking in-your-face evil. I can't explain how the part about women getting stabbed in foreign countries by robed figures plays in all this, but I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that its all about the Ultimate Evil from The Hellmouth.

 

[tabuno]

Spike Seemed To Be Haunted By His Soul

The last time I checked in with Spike, it seemed that he was suffering mightily with having a soul and the numerous people he had dispatched in the past. It just seems so much of a change from which I last saw Spike and that he so calmly flipped to the dark side so easily without any transition. It just didn't seem true to his character that had been built up so far this season.

 

[Shaun]

Originally posted by obcooke
Poor Jonathan, I'm going to miss him. Shouldn't one long-running character from Buffy's past survive?

Me too, I really liked that little guy. It kills off Jonathon but leaves Andrew.... it really is evil .

Finally an interesting vampire on the show, thats something the shows been missing since the end of season 3. Spike killing people was a bit of a surprise but killer Spike is just as good as crazy spike.
The scenes with Dawn were the scariest I've seen in a long time. Especially the anchovie song.

All in all a good episode that just went really quickly for me. This seasons arc looks like its going to be awesome. I really hope it will be.

 

[obcooke]

Okay, the more I think about this episode the more it bothers me - in a good way... I guess. Joss may have come up with the perfect anti-spoiler plot - even if you know what happens, you can't be sure what it means!

It's been a spoiler for a while now that Spike eventually ends up attacking people again. And now we've seen it with our own eyes. But was it Spike? Was it the Big Bad (BB) pretending to be Spike? Was it Spike under the control of the BB?

We saw it and we still don't know what we saw!

After the episode was over it seemed simple to me.

- BBWarren tricked Andrew into doing his bidding.

- BBCassie tried to trick Willow into mistrusting herself.

- BBJoyce tried to trick Dawn into mistrusting Buffy.

- BBHorton or BB-inspired Horton tried to trick Buffy into mistrusting Spike and herself.

Simply, as others have said, to try to separate Buffy from her power base - her friends - again.

It's like those tests where we all know that we shouldn't change our first answer, but I'm beginning to doubt my initial impulse.

"From beneath you, it devours."

Buffy: "I feel like I'm worse that anyone... Honestly, I'm beneath them. My friends, my boyfriend, I feel like I'm not worthy of their love. 'Cause even though they love me... it doesn't mean anything 'cause their opinions don't matter. They don't know... They haven't been through what I've been through. They're not The Slayer, I am... Sometimes I feel... this is awful... I feel like I'm better than them... superior."

It doesn't seem likely that Buffy's choice of the word "beneath" is a coincidence. Joss & Co. would not just be slinging that word around carelessly at this point. It means something.

Could we be heading towards Dark Buffy?

This Big Bad seems more a Corrupter than a Destroyer, after all, except for the rather dramatic destruction of the Casa de Summers, the BB has taken no direct action. When it needs death it enlists others to do its bidding.

It's more of a Loki than an Hela. Loki was not a God of Evil but a God of Mischief, whose machinations caused people to behave evilly. And isn't that the ultimate evil - corrupting all that you touch?

In the first episode, both Buffy and BBBuffy tell us that "it's about the power". Could they both be referring to the power of The Slayer? Could the BB's goal be to corrupt the power of The Slayer to do his bidding?

"When it's bad, Buffy won't choose you, she'll be against you."

In that light, could BBJoyce actually be the real spirit of Joyce warning Dawn that at some point she is going to have to act on her own to stop Buffy?

Right now The Slayer exists in two forms - Buffy & Faith. In fact, it's rather egotistical of Buffy to refer to herself as The Slayer when she is A Slayer, and an off-shoot of the direct line at that.

Could the BB be working on two paths? One to corrupt Buffy, The Guardian of the Hellmouth? And the other, killing the potential Slayer Corp, possible descendants of the line of Faith, trying to insure that only the weak or weak-willed candidates remains? One wonders why BB doesn't just turn his attention to corrupting Faith - it's been done before.

And what about Willow - magic or not? Did BBCassie really overplay her hand or was it a double ploy to trick Willow into trusting her magic? Remember that the only time we have seen Willow use her magic in combat since she returned to the Hellmouth was against the spider creature in "Selfless", but when she did the dark-eyed Dark Willow seemed to re-emerge. BUT if I had to trust anyone, I'd trust Giles and his advice was that Willow cannot suppress the magic entirely without losing herself. My gut says trust Giles, but the evidence seems to belie that.

I don't know I'm as lost as the rest of you. And the more I think about it, the more confused I become. Damn that Joss, you gotta love him.

 

[RogueFaith]

Joss is brilliant...a lot of info was thrown at you in this ep, and I really dont know how to take it all in, but i am confident that it will all unfold in its own time...and i cant wait!

 

[obcooke]

[OB-Wan: ...you gotta admire the continuity. Remember Cassie/Big-Bad's "strong like an Amazon" remark, which was straight out of "The Body", which was the episode where Joyce died!]

I just saw the syndicated version of "The Body" and would you believe that they cut out Tara's "strong like an Amazon" line from when she's trying to comfort Willow????!!!

They also put a commercial break in immediately after Tara's line that the death of someone you love, even if you're expecting it, is always sudden. I mean without a split-second pause to consider how wise and meanful that line is. As soon as it's spoken they're trying to sell you a new sports car or get you to watch some fake judge show.

But back to the topic - how can new fans appreciate the continuity of the show, if they are always cutting out meanful lines from the repeats???

Cassie's line about Amazons barely makes any sense at all unless you remember that Amber used it originally. Besides its a great line, showing how the two women draw support from each other, which is significant in so many shows that follow.

Oh, well, I just got through watching it and had to complain to someone. Thanks for listening. I just have to stop watching the syndicated versions because I get so upset everytime I notice something missing.

 

[Highlander II]

I have a similar issue w/ the syndicated version of "Intervention" - there's a scene at the end - when they're going to find Spike and Glory - and Buffy-boy calls Giles 'Guy-les' - ASH has a line there, but it's cut - for whatever reason - and jumps right to Buffy's "Listen Skirt-girl..." line -- the only reason I even know a line's missing is from reading the transcript -- it's so annoying --

It's also why I'm wishing they'd released the DVDs faster! gah! I wanna see all the OTHER stuff that FX cuts out of the episodes - b/c FX cuts 2 1/2 minutes more than other syndicated runs (yes, I'm that obsessive - I have the video counter set and I *know* how long the show runs from credits to credits and I *know* that FX cuts more than other networks - and it ticks me off!)

anyway --

You're right about the continuity - fortunately I have seen the 'regular' version of "The Body" (back when UPN was hanging on to it) - so I remember that line, however, if I hadn't seen the 'regular' version, you're right, I wouldn't have a clue what they were talking about -- syndication sucks sometimes --

I think there's a significant line from Angel (the character, not the show) that was cut from a S2 or S3 ep that is really important for understanding some of S7 - but for the life of me, I can't recall what it was ---- something about vampires and souls, I believe - but, as it's actually missing from my copy of the ep (title of which I can't recall) I don't remember what it was ---

Ya know - instead of worrying about how may more commercials they can squeeze into an hour - they should consider that the scenes they want to cut, were put into the show for a reason - the networks snip the scenes, thinking them irrelevent, but they're not -- I remember and episode of MacGyver that I saw during it's regular run, and there was a scene of Mac and this German woman who claimed to have never been outside Germany, at the airport in LA and she asks him for 3 quarters for a soda (I know, I know, it's like twice that now), then later he references this, concerned that she's lying b/c she claimed to never have been to the US and Mac wants to know how she knows US currency, and you go - 'oh yeah! she did! how did she know that!' - however, in the syndicated version, that scene in the airport is gone - and you get to Mac's questioning scene and go 'huh? what the heck is he on about?'. Even worse - MacGyver's never been released on DVD - and I don't think it ever will be, though they could make a truckload selling it (I think they need some of Anya's capitalistic expertise here) - sad really- I'd love a collection of MacGyver DVD's - they'd look nice next to my Buffy ones!

 

[obcooke]

[Highlander II: I think there's a significant line from Angel... that was cut from a S2 or S3 ep that is really important for understanding some of S7...]

Ah yes, I remember it well.

I almost mentioned it, but felt that my post had gone on too long anyway.

--------------

From 3.16 Doppelgangland:

Willow: It's horrible! That's me as a vampire? I'm so evil and... skanky. And I think I'm kinda gay.

Buffy: Willow, just remember, a vampire's personality has nothing to do with the person it was.

the missing line:

Angel: Well, actually... eh, That's a good point.

--------------

Which is, of course, significant because later Willow actually turns out to be gay. And it indicates that a victim's personality can have an effect on the vampire that they become.

Maybe we should start a thread detailing the stuff that is missing from syndication and how it affects the understanding of the show.

Or better yet, those of us who have seen the complete eps or checked out the transcripts should put in notes under the episode letting others know what they are missing when they see the syndies.

I'm going to go ahead and put in my notes for 5.16 : The Body.

 

[Highlander II]

yes - that's the line!

And I have no idea how I knew it was missing, as I've only seen the ep in syndication -- but I heard it one time, and it was missing later -- but it's important!


Hmmmm - guess we could add a 'hey - this is what's missing from the syndicated version of this ep' stuff -

considering UPN even cut Bargaining when they split it into 2 parts - they cut a small bit from when Buffy-bot and Dawn are at parent-teacher day --

 

[obcooke]

Okay, one more off-topic note...

Can you imagine how terrible "Once More With Feeling" will be in syndication? The one-hour version seems mutilated after seeing the full version, I'd hate to think how they cut it down even further to fit syndication.

---------------------------------

Back to the episode.

This is not a spoiler but a question about the past, that may reveal the future.

What bad guy have we already seen, that appeared to us in the form of multiple dead people, trying to trick one of our heroes?

You don't have to answer out-loud if you think it might ruin the surprise for others.

I'll just keep calling him the Big Bad, but some of you will know who I mean.

 

[Highlander II]

darn it, ob! now ya got me thinking on that - and I can see it right there (yeah, I know you can see me pointing) - but can't quite put my finger on it ---

you doing this just to make me go watch 6 seasons of Buffy? (yeah, I'd watch 'em all just in case)--


*****


RE: OMWF - OMG - I don't even want to know what they're gonna do to that thing in syndie --- it's bad enough that I have only seen the 'cut' version ---

 

[obcooke]

Well, I guess I'll have to give some hints. I'll spoiler them so can only look at the hints that you feel you need to remember the answer.

The Season:

Spoiler

Season Three

The time of year:

Spoiler

Christmas

A quote from the bad guy:

Spoiler

You're not supposed to die. This isn't the plan... But it'll do.

A quote that's sure to give it away:

Spoiler

This is why we brought you back.

And no fan can hear this line without getting the answer:

Spoiler

Alright, I get it. You're evil.

 

[Highlander II]

ok - that's what I thought you meant before you put up the hints -

b/c I've heard some others mention the same thing -

And - it's possible -- but - this is the Whedon-verse - ANYTHING is possible here ---

Honestly - it wouldn't surprise me if one day we get an ep where Buffy is really a 20' Redwood, and Spike is one of the three little pigs -- I'd be serverely disappointed, but not surprised -

 

[little smaug]

Ya know, thats what i thought it could be whilst i was watching the episode

Spoiler

because i was just watching Amends the other day (is it ok to say that? i think everyone will know what we're talking about). But trying to turn Dawn against Buffy, and trying to get Willow to kill herself - it's a little too similar to be coincidence. I just don't get how Spike fits into it all. But we shall see...

On a different note, i thought the vamp was hilarious! :laugh2:

 

[VAMPette]

Great episode I thought - was completely taken in by the whole thing and I definitely got a shock esp. w/ Cassie revealing herself as the BB and Spike killing again. Cannot wait to find out if the BB was masquerading as Spike or whether he has really gone back to his old ways - seems unlikely, but anythings possible. About the chip - was it working earlier in 'Beneath me' when Spike is fighting the worm monster and then Anya turns it back to a man - did he react with pain then when he hits him by mistake? I think so but I can't remember and have no way of checking it.

(Quote - OB)

BBWarren tricked Andrew into doing his bidding.

- BBCassie tried to trick Willow into mistrusting herself.

- BBJoyce tried to trick Dawn into mistrusting Buffy.

- BBHorton or BB-inspired Horton tried to trick Buffy into mistrusting Spike and herself.

I wasn't convinced that Joyce was the BB. Cassie obviously, probably Warren but Joyce appeared completely differently, very angel like and her message - not to trust Buffy, maybe there's going to be a reason later in the season why Dawn and indeed us, shouldn't trust Buffy. After all, considering this may be the end for Buffy, isn't there a possiblity that Buffy may be this season's BB? She does appear in episode one after all the other Big Bads. Plus, something was trying to stop Joyce getting to Dawn, and telling her that. Or again, maybe we're just supposed to think that. The one thing that I do think may be true though is that obviously Willow's going to be important in fighting whatever this is, otherwise why would it try and kill her.

Loved all the Horton stuff - dead funny, especially all the tae kwondo stuff. And poor Johnathan - I'll miss him, he was dead sweet...in a nerdy way of course.