Does Harry Potter promote the Occult?

This was an excellent series; and Christians have read it & found no problems; others found problems because it "involved chants"; but some people like to complain & find fault about everything; my sister said some people at her church were complaining; i gave her the book & she said she could find nothing to complain about. it was a good story; much ado was made over the Wizard of Oz also; some people if given $1m would complain about having to pay taxes on it rather than rejoice in the funds received. I simply ask if they are constipated to give them such a surly disposition & normally never see them again!
 
Many years ago, I was a member of a role-playing group in my home town of Mansfield. We'd meet every Sunday afternoon at a youth centre owned by the local parish council, and play Dungeons & Dragons, Runequest, Traveller, Pendragon, stuff like that... One Sunday, two blokes turned up, and told us they were going to ask the parish council to refuse us use of the room because role-playing games were "bad for our spiritual well-being". Even though they'd expected to find a bunch of sixteen-year-olds celebrating black masses, but instead found a bunch of twentysomethings playing, on that particular day, a WWI aerial combat wargame with small model biplanes on sticks... they still insisted it was for own good. We argued against them... but they got the group banned from the youth centre. In hindsight, we should have thrown them out, and then reported them for harrassment. But, well, we were role-players not satanists...
 
I wish religious fanatics would burn themselves.

Harry Potter has done nothing but provide good for the world. Children are reading more. There is some ridiculous stat showing child accidents were cut in half during each weekend a harry potter book was released.

That itself has done more than religion has lately.
 
I think that any children drawn towards waving a stick around and hoping for magic will be merely disappointed, rather than drawn into a re-enactment of Faust.

Then again, children's imagination is great enough that they can enjoy waving a stick around for hours while shouting "stoppus badguyus", and I might just go and join in :D
 
All this fuss about Harry Potter ... imagine what would happen if Lovecraft suddenly became the next best thing since sliced bread. Now there you have chants galore and things from beyond the stars. The Vatican would probably have collective apoplexy.

With all the problems facing children today ... you'd think the church would get past complaining about something that is doing a whole lot of good. Children are reading and reading about other children who make it through so very harsh times. What's the problem with that? At no time is the Church ever mentioned, even obliquely.

And hey ... if imaginations come alive and days are enriched because kids see magic in railway platforms and small animals ... then all the better for them.
 
...but instead found a bunch of twentysomethings playing ... with small model biplanes on sticks...

So that's what real magic wands look like! :rolleyes:


(And I'm a bit disturbed that a Great Old One can't spell. But at least Py didn't call it a trainsubstation. :))


Regarding the thread topic, it seems the world is full of people waiting to be upset by something. I'd see it as a positive that so many of them have to make up things to worry about if there weren't so many real things in the world that need sorting out.

As to magic in fiction, I loved all sorts of fantasy stories as a child, but I can't recall a time when I haven't been very sceptical about things. But perhaps that's the problem these people see: they're afraid of those of us who can differentiate between fiction and the real world.
 
The question I've always had when I come across Christian objections to Harry Potter is: Do these Christians actually believe that magic works?

I don't know what the Catholic stance is, but after reading the Paw Creek article until I got a splitting headache, the answer for these evangelicals is obviously - disturbingly - yes. Harry Potter is, apparently, every bit as true as the Bible. To quote the article: "Without question I believe the Harry Potter series is a creation of hell helping to prepare the younger generation to welcome the Biblical prophesies of demons and devils led by Lucifer himself. Infallible scripture, the Holy Bible, has outlined the end time scenario, and the Harry Potter script sounds exactly like the devil's part...Death, mysteries, strange paranormal powers and scary happenings will become the order of the day. Casting spells, death by voodoo activities, and fearful sights will be worldwide. The Harry Potter book reveals a very enlightening picture of the coming days for those 'left behind' after the Rapture of the saints."

(I apologize for making you read that.)

So my handy "but this is just fiction" argument doesn't hold any water here. "Fiction" is now a meaningless concept. Everything ever written, every idea that pops into one's head (see this author's alarm over Rowling's inspiration on the train) is potentially the all-too-real work of the devil. The Dewey decimal system itself is probably the work of the devil. (I wish I was kidding.)

And if you, like me, read phrases like "scary happenings" as being vague and meaningless, the argument is foiled again. They have some very specific objections. At one point in SS, wormwood is used to make a potion. (The article quotes the exact page numbers, if you doubt), and the article quotes "an anonymous physician and father" who points out that wormwood - which is all too real - contains thujone, a hypnotic drug which is banned by the FDA. "Another record near the end of the book portrays seven bottles containing drug potions: 3 contain poison, 2 contain wine and 2 contain a magic drug which the children are to correctly choose from and drink in order to reach their goal -- the sorcerer's stone, which they are seeking, before the effects of the drug wears off."

So, apparently, if I'm reading this correctly, if I can foil the FDA and get my hands on some wormwood and follow the instructions in SS for making the proper "drug potion," I can find the sorcerer's stone and live forever? That might be a very seductive proposition. Luckily, I am an atheist, and I don't believe in the enticements of the devil any more than I believe in god, and I'm not going to waste my time stirring a cauldron.

(BTW, kudos to the muggle FDA for being on top of the wormwood situation. The Ministry of Magic has obviously overlooked the dangers posed by this hypnotic drug and has failed to keep it out of the hands of wizard children. But, of course, the Ministry has had it's share of problems recently. And, as the Ministry of Magic is a British institution, I don't know if they have any jurisdiction over American drug-potion making.)

All I can say to people who believe that the line between fantasy and reality is nonexistent is: sucks to be you. Sorry, but that's the most coherent answer I can come up with. As an atheist and a Harry Potter fan, I can't answer these charges concerning the "scary happenings." You have my number there. Good luck in your war with the devil and the occult.

If it's any consolation, if you're right, sucks more to be me.
 
Many years ago, I was a member of a role-playing group in my home town of Mansfield. We'd meet every Sunday afternoon at a youth centre owned by the local parish council, and play Dungeons & Dragons, Runequest, Traveller, Pendragon, stuff like that... One Sunday, two blokes turned up, and told us they were going to ask the parish council to refuse us use of the room because role-playing games were "bad for our spiritual well-being". Even though they'd expected to find a bunch of sixteen-year-olds celebrating black masses, but instead found a bunch of twentysomethings playing, on that particular day, a WWI aerial combat wargame with small model biplanes on sticks... they still insisted it was for own good. We argued against them... but they got the group banned from the youth centre. In hindsight, we should have thrown them out, and then reported them for harrassment. But, well, we were role-players not satanists...

Whats crazy is that the council listened to them and banned the group.

That would never happen over here, role playing is huge, our towns junior high school lets my 22 year old brother and his twentysomething friends roleplaying club play their games every thursday evening.
 
Without meaning to be (too) facetious... do these people even know what the word "occult" means....? If so, I'd say the Bible has a great deal more to do with promoting such than Harry Potter.....
 
There's plenty of magic in Christianity - they just call it miracles.

I don't wish to be offensive to anyone here but I regard the bible much the same as Harry Potter - both works of fiction, with Harry Potter being a whole lot less harmful.
 
[These posts always get so much longer than I anticipate...]

TPA- the ministry also seems to have overlooked the awful potential of polyjuice potion.;)

D&D, and now Harry Potter, are not considered on the same level as Black Masses, but more as gateways to the occult. Much as cigarettes and pot are considered gateways to harder drugs. The problem (and different people have different levels of problems with HP) is that Rowling has used a small (VERY SMALL) amount of real occult material in her books. Reading the tea leaves, gazing into crystal balls, alchemy, etc. Personally I believe both have been tarred unnecessarily, and tar's a pretty sticky material; difficult to remove once it gets onto the skin. D&D problems were started because one kid got crazy about it and killed someone, and because that particular kid was into satanism, the rest of the phenomenon became associated with it. And problems with Potter, I'm told, stem back to an article written by The Onion, in which a child gains an interest in the occult as a result of reading Harry Potter. Obviously the overly literal and zealous person who read the article didn't understand what The Onion was.

Do Christians believe in magic? The answer is that some do, some don't. Some don't believe in any of it, and that warnings against it in the Bible are for the purpose of keeping people from being deceived into trusting in things that don't exist. Others believe that all things magical, that have every appearance of being true (this often includes "miracles" by members of other religions and other paranormal activity, conversations with the dead, etc.) is accountable to either demons or to Satan himself. Most evangelicals fall into this category. And there's a third group that actually believes in all things magical, but they are definitely a small minority. And you'll find all three of these types coexisting in nearly every church, and even mixtures of the three in the same person.

I don't buy into the "it's just fiction" argument, because that would be to render the written word impotent, and if it's inherently impotent, why's it the first right guaranteed to us in the Constitution? Clearly words have power, and thoughts have power. This extends into fiction, not because people literally believe in magic or the fantastical, but because authors can't help but write their worldview into the books. And some worldviews are harmful. I don't think Rowling falls into this category and have argued against her inclusion in it. Nor is it automatically wrong to read the views of someone that disagrees with you (and it's healthy to get a certain amount of disagreement); but it does mean you need to read attentively.

And then there's the Narnia/Tolkien case. Both books explicitly use the word "magic", yet very seldom does any Christian seriously object to it; largely I think because both Lewis and Tolkien were avowed Christians, so clearly they weren't using the word in the same way as a non-Christian might. It's rather ludicrous to object to Potter while not objecting to Narnia, and this gets into the reasons why magic is condemned in the Bible. The occult's goals are generally: to curse someone (as in voodoo), to talk to the dead (as in channeling and seances), and to see into the future (fortune-telling, tarot, and quija boards). If the power to do this (since people who practice it claim it really happens) is real and it clearly doesn't come from God, then it must come from the devil. So you have a reaching by humans for a power that not only isn't God's, but is the devil's.

Within the context of a fabricated world, however, all of this changes. The power isn't necessarily attributed to Satan or to God; the power comes from wherever the author decides it comes from. It isn't, therefore, inherently evil. The power itself becomes neutral, much as mankind's seeking control of the natural world is neutral; it's good or evil depending on the use to which we put it.

Nor is it put to the uses it's put to in the real world; no occultist believes they can fetch their sugar bowl from the cupboard and command it to teleport up the stairs on its own, or turn their cat into a dragon. There's still room in a fictional world, however, to attribute things to devils and to "evil", so if the author attributes his/her magic to dark powers, then it's still a problem for Christians.

Please remember that rabidly anti-Potter people are a minority within the church (mildly anti-Potter people are much more common), and the internet has a tendency to bring out the kooks from all corners of human opinion.

edit: JD- no, they don't know what the word "occult" actually means. It's come to carry such a strong connotation of satanism that that is the working definition within churches, rather than the more proper meaning of "concealed" (or mysterious). This problem traces back to the day when science and alchemy weren't separate; and demonstrable results of alchemy (scientific results, but since there was no science, it was considered magic) were attached to the occult, and as this happened about the same time as the Puritans were running about on witch hunts, and moving to America (and in the process, semi-disconnecting themselves from the context of the culture they came out of), the whole thing's just gotten to be a big mess.

edit (again): and it's not like Christians only sit around and discuss the evils of Harry Potter. It's only one issue among very many, but being as it's one of the few places where fantasy and Christianity intersect, it appears to be larger than it is.
 
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Very good post, Lith.:)

On the subject of the meaning of the word; yes, that's its original meaning, but according to most dictionary definitions, the number one meaning these days seems to be "Of, relating to, or dealing with supernatural influences, agencies, or phenomena" (quoting from the American Heritage Dictionary). In which case, I would still argue that the Bible has more to do with promoting such ideas than any fictional book such as HP. But yes, in its more proper -- and original -- sense, it does mean "hidden from view, concealed, secret", etc.

It wasn't until the severe lack of understanding of the English language became so prevalent that all applicatons of the word became so pejorative ("occult source", for instance, occurs in different pieces of literature, referring to the origins of a stream, meaning simply that the source of the stream is unknown or hidden from view -- hardly something necessarly sinister). It is, sadly, just another example of a very idiotic sort of literalness on the part of far too many people, who simply cannot seem to understand the boundary between the figurative and the literal when it comes to writing.

Oh, and just for the record: for those who jokingly mentioned "Bewitched" and "I Dream of Jeannie", etc.... Those were included in such fundamentalist Christian fulminations back when they were first broadcast. I recall actually having such in some of the lesson plans for various classes I either was in or taught when I was going to church..... I'm sorry if this offends, but it really is the truth: such idiocy really deserves little more than sorrow and contempt. This sort of backward thinking is what continues to promote illiteracy and fear and hatred of anything outside a very narrow "norm", rather than building a bridge to understanding....
 
Holding a stick and saying Avada Kedavra will kill someone no more than splitting your hands will part a body of water.
 
It was a good post Lith and explains much. This subject was discussed on a radio phone-in and one of the points made was that the Vatican must actually believe that there is a viable alternative to Christianity that works; a lifestyle choice in which casting magic is possible, otherwise they would not be worried. You explain it here:
Others believe that all things magical, that have every appearance of being true (this often includes "miracles" by members of other religions and other paranormal activity, conversations with the dead, etc.) is accountable to either demons or to Satan himself. Most evangelicals fall into this category.

My daughter is doing a Philosophy and Ethics AS course. I really wish I was back at school because she gets to go to lectures such as "Did Jesus really perform miracles?" But I guess that is another subject entirely.
 
Do Christians believe in magic? The answer is that some do, some don't.

If they are Christians then they believe that Christ rose from the dead. Call it what you will - that's magic.

If any other organisation had, as it's head, a leader who had come back to life it would be regarded as magic.

All churches have done a wonderful job of changing the terminology of superstition and magic so that they sound more respectable than they would otherwise.
 
TPA- the ministry also seems to have overlooked the awful potential of polyjuice potion.;)

Yes. I wonder if the FDA has weighed in on lacewing flies. :)

D&D problems were started because one kid got crazy about it and killed someone, and because that particular kid was into satanism, the rest of the phenomenon became associated with it. And problems with Potter, I'm told, stem back to an article written by The Onion, in which a child gains an interest in the occult as a result of reading Harry Potter. Obviously the overly literal and zealous person who read the article didn't understand what The Onion was.
Actually, I don't think that all, or even most, D&D and HP hysteria can be traced back to these two sources. (I think the Onion article was probably a humorous response to HP hysteria already in full swing.) I think that many people drew conclusion about D&D and HP's "occult-ness" independently. D&D, for example, tends not to be played by cheerleader and football-player types. D&D is dorky. It's played by people like my husband: the quiet kid who wore black and who smoked in the parking lot before school. And my husband is a satanist (I'm not helping my case, am I?), and he is a dork, and I don't think it's a coincidence. But this, along with the weird-looking 20-sided dice helped give D&D the whiff of the occult.

The definition of the occult: "Occult" = "scary happenings." This is a word where the connotation is more important than the already vague dictionary definition. It's defined the way pornography is. Its nefarious implications can be used cast suspicion on anything one doesn't like: ouija boards, crystals, heavy metal lyrics, that store that sells dream-catchers and smells funny, D&D, yoga. (Yes, yoga. I'll explain below.) Like pornography, the mystery is what makes it seductive and, so the argument goes, dangerous. But the more specific you are in describing the particular occult object/practice in question, the sillier the argument (not to mention the occult object/practice) seems. ("It's a bunch of guys sitting around a table, pretending to be elves, keeping track of dozens of complicated character stats on paper, and fighting imaginary monsters via dice rolls. But mostly they're talking about their favorite episodes of Buffy.")

It's just like the word "secular" is being used by some Christians today. "Secular," of course, means "non-religious." That could mean almost anything. It could be used to describe atheism. It could be used to describe science. It could be used to describe an egg-salad sandwich. But these days it's being used to mean "anti-religious," or, of course, "anti-Christian." (Conservative commentators like Cal Thomas have used it in this sense.) Supposedly there is a "secular" movement afoot today that's being used to keep Christians down and is the reason that society is on the decline. But this argument is spurious. Science, for example, is secular. It's non-religious. It's a different paradigm. But listen to the creationists argue that their "theories" aren't taken seriously by science because of anti-Christian prejudice in colleges, on school boards, and on the judiciary, etc. Proponents of evolution are labeled "secularists," and the PR damage is done. Geez, why can't science give the Christian viewpoint a fair shake? And so on...

I've gone on a bit of a rant (No!), but this same argument is used against the HP books as well. It doesn't matter how good and moral Harry and his friends are. The Christmas thing isn't good enough; they aren't shown going to church. Therefore, HP is anti-Christian. Never mind that that would have nothing to do with the plot and it would alienate non-Christian readers. And never mind that Frodo and Aragorn never went to church either.

Of course, as an atheist, I have objections to the notion that the words "moral" and "religious" are synonymous.

This subject was discussed on a radio phone-in and one of the points made was that the Vatican must actually believe that there is a viable alternative to Christianity that works; a lifestyle choice in which casting magic is possible, otherwise they would not be worried.

That reminds me of an article I read in a magazine written for Christian women. The article discussed whether is was acceptable to practice Yoga, because of its roots in Hinduism. Mind you, the article never claimed that Yoga was bunk. The article claimed that many women find Yoga relaxing, healthful, etc. In fact, that was the very problem. Yoga works, but you would be achieving health and relaxation in a non-Christian way (???), therefore, a good Christian woman should proceed with caution.

Anyway, the above are some of the reasons that I, as an atheist, find Christian objections to the fantasy genre to be incoherent. After all, Rowling is a Christian, as was Tolkien and Lewis. I would say it's because HP is aimed at children, but so was Narnia and The Hobbit. I actually think it's something about Rowling's style and her sudden popularity. I think it's because she's hip. Kids were reading it and quoting it and taking it to heart before their parents understood it. Tolkien wrote in a "high" ethereal style. The implications of his magic were more vague. Whereas, Rowling was more specific -- mix these ingredients (some of them real) to make X potion. And she described a hidden world running parallel to our own, and that is the very definition of "the occult."
 
JD- Yep, we do promote such views.:)

It is, sadly, just another example of a very idiotic sort of literalness on the part of far too many people, who simply cannot seem to understand the boundary between the figurative and the literal when it comes to writing.
I agree here too-that's how you end up with televangelists like John Hagee (to date the only one that's absolutely pissed me off whenever I've heard him talk) say that the four horsemen of the Apocalypse are "literal, and they represent death, war, famine, and sickness." Um, excuse me... they're not LITERAL if they REPRESENT something.

Jaire- it may not kill them, but it's still arguably bad for the soul.

mosaix- you could say that; they're both supernatural. However magic implies that the humans that practice it can command the supernatural to their will, whereas miracles are at the discretion of God, and can't be commanded by humans (in addition to the question of where such power comes from).

All churches have done a wonderful job of changing the terminology of superstition and magic so that they sound more respectable than they would otherwise.
I disagree here; the distinction predates all science and comes out of a world in which everyone had a religion, Christian or not, and rationalism as such hadn't really come into being yet.

TPA- there is one further thing about D&D that makes Christians dislike it, and that is the casting of spells within the game- the magic isn't just an element in it (or isn't just a static element); it's something you consciously decide to do. That is, you go through the motions, real or not. Whether or not that's harmful feeds back into my earlier argument about fictional versus "real" magic.

The misappropriation of words is wide-ranging and nearly everyone's guilty of it. As for Creationism- well, that's a topic for another thread, and I have some "words of frustration" for nearly everyone on that subject. All it takes is a little broadening of "day" into "era", and the entire Science vs. Creationism landscape changes. Radically. But this (again) relates to people being unable to distinguish between "literal" and "figurative", even when they have a de facto separation of the two already.

[/minirant]

Of course, as an atheist, I have objections to the notion that the words "moral" and "religious" are synonymous.
Complete agreement. The morals are an afterthought of religion rather than a reason for it. You could even argue that Christianity is subversively anti-moral, since Jesus ran around breaking Jewish laws and condemning the powers of the day for taking morals over religion.

Yes, we're wary of Yoga. And Tai Chi, Feng Shui, acupuncture, and a whole lot of other stuff. Not because they don't work, but because they're systems based on theoretical energies of a mystical nature (which also feeds back into my earlier arguments of where these powers are coming from, should they somehow actually exist).

As to whether Rowling is a Christian- I read somewhere where she stated (after JPII's declaration about her lifestyle) that she wasn't religious. Which immediately puts her into a different category than Tolkien and Lewis, who were both undeniably devout. Tolkien's use of "magic" is debatable- one of his letters says that "magic" was the word used by the non-elves to describe the technology and wisdom of the elves. So there may actually be no "magic" in Middle Earth. But Lewis embraced magic as magic, and put it to use as a metaphor. (Honestly though, I think if people actually read Lewis, rather than sit back and esteem him as a modern-day example of Christian excellence in literature, we'd see a lot of changes within churches, and in my not-so humble opinion, the effect would be all to the good.)
 
mosaix- you could say that; they're both supernatural. However magic implies that the humans that practice it can command the supernatural to their will, whereas miracles are at the discretion of God, and can't be commanded by humans (in addition to the question of where such power comes from).

This is exactly what I meant about churches changing the terminology.


Of course we can't condone magic!

But hey wait a minute what about water into wine and walking on water?

OK, let's call them miracles!

What's the difference?

OK, one's human practice and the other is God's work
.


What about Moses and the parting of the sea BTW? :)
 

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