Guess who's coming to dinner? *potential Spoilers!* (covered)

Highlander II

Highlander II

There can be only one!!
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Okay - I'm gonna put most of this in a big huge honkin' spoiler box - just in case -



James Marsters... yep - Spike will join the AtS cast in the fall! What role he will hold, what he will do, how the other characters will react to him and all his new nuances and such is all still a huge unknown, but he will join the 'fang gang' in some form ---



And if anyone goes the entire summer w/o learning the contents of that spoiler box, I'll be VERY surprised -- and impressed! honestly!

Anyway --- speculate if you'd like - or just read and comment ---

**I am gonna suggest that comments also be covered in spoiler boxes, as the comments could, potentially, give away the 'spoiler' itself**

 
Highlander 2: **I am gonna suggest that comments also be covered in spoiler boxes, as the comments could, potentially, give away the 'spoiler' itself**




This is going to be one GREY thread then! :D

How about we leave a big spoiler space and then chat normally, because anyone trying to avoid this particular spoiler isn't going to have much fun in this thread, even if we do grey everything out?





I know you are a fan of this "Dinner Guest", but personally I am very torn about this decision.
On the one hand, where better to explore Spike's experience of having a soul, than with the only other vampire to ever share that experience? But on the other hand - two vampires with a soul on the one show? Another male joins the Angel cast as we lose a female? Angel is supposed to be getting 'revamped', and yet we keep hearing that there will be lots of guest spots from Buffy characters - I am not sure if they are going to be able to pull off merging the old (Buffy characters) with the very new (Angel Inc).

It seems as if Angel The Series has been moving further and further away from its origins, culminating in ths surprise offer in 4.22, and yet it is at this point that TPTB decide it must be a good time to dredge up very very old threads and themes?
I've yet to be convinced.
 
Whatever works -- the thread itself is clearly marked as containing spoilers or potential spoilers --

grey boxes or spaces ---

about the 'Dinner guest' -- some BtVS S7 spoilers also --

Well, I'm still slightly 'reserved' about it, but less so than before. See - BtVS was very 'female' heavy - all about 'girl power' - why can't Angel be about 'man power'? or vamp power? I'm waiting to see what Joss and friends come up with. I know he's said that the other characters from BtVS - if schedules permit - may make guest appearances, but that doesn't mean they'll become 'integral' to the storyline. And we don't know if Spike will be 'welcomed' into the Angel gang, if he'll be rejected (oh please - hasn't he had enough of that?), or even *how* he'll be reintroduced to the show. Remember - he's just done the least selfish thing ever in his life (and unlife) - to just have him come back w/o some type of 'reward' would make his 'sacrifice' seem very insignificant. The Shanshu prophecy is still out there - and it's very vague (Joss has mentioned this in recent interviews - b/c ppl over-simplify it - Joss says it's rather complicated) - so, anything's possible in relation to that. James is a brilliant actor and Joss is a remarkable writer, between the two, I'm sure there's something that can be done to make Spike fit in nicely on the show.

One thing to add - just b/c I'm thinking it might come up - Charisma's departure from the show had nothing to do w/ JM moving to the show - CC, from what I've read, wanted to leave prior to the WB even signing JM on to AtS -- oh, then the WB decided they weren't gonna keep quiet about that signing - and they announced everywhere that JM was moving -- which, btw - has a nasty habit of totally ruining the end of S7 of BtVS --ie: I knew Spike was moving to AtS before I saw the end of BtVS -- I wasn't happy about knowing that - kinda 'mucked up' my viewing of the final ep -- grrr argh.


*sigh* that was longer than I'd expected --

anyway --- keep the discussion coming ---

Maybe I'll go have one of the admins add a section for Season 5 and we can move this there? That sound good?? I know, I'm not the mod for this section, but S5 has been confirmed and it would make this speculation talk much easier ----

Annette - if you beat me to this -- cool deal ----
 
Re: Charisma

Well, that's as may be, but I am pretty sure I read somewhere, way back when James was dropping hints about how he was really pushing TPTB to move him over to Angel, that the problem with Angel TS was that it already had an awful lot of leads. Heck we gained two extra people in the titles in the last year alone! He had mentioned that there was a money issue involved with bringing him over - like it might not happen unless other leads jumped ship (or were pushed).

Now I am not saying that is the reason for Charisma's departure - a recent article (via Slayage) reports Joss as saying that, as with Buffy, they had done the Cordelia character to death, and the recent developments for her weren't making her any more vital (apparently fan reaction to Cordy and Angel's romance was very very negative).
And hey, if you had a brand new baby wouldn't you want to be doing something different, or not working at all for a while?
I think what Charisma did with Cordelia was pretty amazing - the writers matured the character, but as an actress she certainly pulled it off pretty well.

Er, apart from "Evil Cordelia", which just sucked!


Whatever the reason, it is all done and dusted now, I'll deal. I certainly hope we get a nice goodbye arc for Cordy at the beginning of next season - no "Aw, guess what, Cordy just died over the summer", or lame scenes at her funeral. Please bring the actress back for the beginning of the season!

As as for Spike.... Hands up if you think he might not come back as a vampire?

I agree that Spike as the outsider/outcast is old, old, old. I think it would be nice for him to need help, and for the Angel team to offer it because they want to help him, and not because he's making some kind of violent scene, or blackmailing them or something.

I had also read Joss namechecking the Shanshu prophecy. As much as that would TOTALLY be able to explain Spike's re-emergence, I hope they don't use it. I feel like that should be the biggie at the end. Joss is always going on about how he plans seasons ahead, I sure hope he has an idea of how the big finale of Angel will work, and that unlike Buffy's finale, which was about the foursome and Spike imo, I really hope Angel's it is actually all about Angel.

That said, I look forward to Angel and Spike's interactions this coming year. They have so much history, and so much has changed for both of them in the last few years, it is just bound to be pretty interesting!
 
Well - there's always that 'money' thing with ppl moving - and there's gonna be heated argument and accusation - but still, like Joss said 'it's not fair to lay that on James' -- (the CC leaving bit) -- but - anything's possible - and it's Hollywood and we'll never know the whole story and blah blah blah -- you know what I mean? ;)


*raises hand* on the Spike not being vampy thing --

I'd read somewhere that Joss actually wanted Spike to come back in S7 as William --- so, there's that potential for him on Angel - and if he comes back as 'human' - then Angel really has no reason *not* to take him in -- as Angel is about 'saving souls' - and as human, Spike would have one, thus placing him under the umbrella of 'those Angel is supposed to save' -- and if he took in Faith - why not Spike?

Also, I'm with you - Spike should have a purpose - him being on the 'outside' has been done to death. I can see him being on the outside in the beginning - b/c even Angel wouldn't trust him on first sight (remember the convo he had w/ Buffy in Chosen?) -- but hopefully he'll be allowed to 'meld' into the group and have a purpose.

Yeah - I know we gained 2 new cast members last year - (I'm still not entirely sure why they put Lorne in - I liked him better recurring - he's to Angel what Spike was to BtVS - but anyway) - and Connor - eh - whatever --- I like the way they 'ended' his story and hope they reference him a bit, but not build anything around him. CC - I hope they mention her - or do something to 'close' her story too.

And I have to go - more a bit later ----
 
I liked how Lorne moved centre-stage last season, but I can't see how they can really continue that next season. Entertainment Law department or no, how on earth is he going to fit in at W&H?


*slaps head*
Oh **** I just realised how they might do it... Remember Ally McBeal? And the nightclub in the basement? I am dreading that idea, but at the same time kind of digging it.

I like Lorne, I think the actor deserved a credit in the titles after all those appearances, but I am not too sure where they can go with him.


Spike coming back as William? Hmmm, that's interesting. Especially after "Lies MY Parents told me". I wonder how they would do it? I don't think it would work if he came back, like Darla, with a memory of everything that happened in her whole life - he wouldn't, and couldn't be William the Poet with those memories, could he?
On the other hand, they could go the route of Angel's transformation into Liam in Spin the Bottle. Which could give us some interesting culture clashes.

I reckon they might go the route of amnesia, but then, what could the hook be? How would he run into Angel, what jeapoardy is he in, or causing, for this to happen.

Which brings me onto my next question.
What about Cordelia's visions? Have the become obsolete with the new resources at Angel, W&H's fingertips? Or are they going to be passed on, or given to someone else? Would it be too convenient for Spike to get them somehow?


As for Connor - I have a feeling we haven't seen the last of him, but if we do hear him referenced, it will be Angel's quiet reflection (no pun intended :rolleyes: ), rather than the cast talking about him. Perhaps this will be the get-out clause for Cordy. She remembers, even if no one else does, and can't bear to be with someone that chose that route, and a bunch of other people that have totally different memories of her very painful last year.
 
Thanx for moving this --- whomever did so -- ;)



Hmmm - I actually wanted Spike to come back all 'William-like' in S7 - that's what I was hoping for - him being human and kinda 'shy' - and just walk up to Buffy's door in the middle of the day and knock and she answers and he says, hello, Buffy - like he has certain memories but not others, maybe? weird selective amnesia -- b/c it would have been very interesting what Buffy would have done with William, as opposed to souled-Spike.

I'd like to see him as William - bad poetry and everything - I love the character - you just have to, he's so - endearing. The floppy hair, the glasses, the shyness, the poetry, the love - it's all there - he's so adorable -- anyway --- maybe have him come back as William and he starts off just about where he left off when Dru found him - but that memory is hazy - and he comes back more like he was transported through time - that could be cool --

I have no idea what we'll get -- I just want something fun and interesting and different ---

Well, for now - I have to run off to spikespotting.com and see what I might want to snag for jamesmarsters.info before spikespotting gets completely obliterated ---- *sniffle* another JM site goes bye-bye --- ppl are so busy lately -----

(yes, that was completely irrelevant to the rest of the thread)
 
Ooh! I have an idea! Ok What if Spike came back Just like he was after being turned (ie LMPTM)? He could be that cute mix of evil and innocence. But he'd have all his memory's. It'd be like a weird thing where he remembers all his past but acts and thinks like just turned William. Maybe like he's sorta regressed from the trauma of dieing?

Hmm probably won't happen but a girl can hope....

Gah. I just hope he isn't human. I really, really hope. I mean What would be his point then? I anyone remember what he was like as a human? If he comes back he'll be just as weak and geeky.

Even if he has all his memories He'll be back to a weak human body. And if it turns out anything like my one fic that means bad vision, clumsiness (ok I don't think ever on Buffy he was clumsy but he just looks like the kinda guy what would be!), probably going right from remembering vampire speed, agility, grace, and all the other vampire powers he could act thinking he still has the powers and could damn well be killed in two seconds if he came back human!
 
WOW :eek: you two (H2 and Tabs) sure have had your thinking heads on the past couple of days. Methinks Joss Whedon needs for you 2 to get in touch and give him a few pointers. :lol:

As you say it'll be interesting to see where JM will fit in with Angel Inc. Nooooooo way would I want him human I just like him the way he is. Funny, sometimes bad, doing his best to be 'romantic' or is lovestruck the correct word. I didn't like 'William', definitely too wimpy or is it just the fact that seeing Spike as he is now can't imagine him as William. Who knows eh?????

H2 - thanks for the suggestion for this forum. It did cross my mind but at the time didn't think of asking (if u know what i mean) :D

annette ::D
 
Well, I know that Joss doesn't want to 'belittle' Spike's 'sacrifice' - or undo what Spike did. However Spike returns, his 'saving of the world' will be significant. They can't get rid of that - wipe the slate clean - that kind of thing, b/c then S7 of BtVS would have been a complete waste of time. And Joss wants BtVS S7 to mean something - so, Spike's sacrifice will remain. What the 'fallout' from it will be is yet unknown, but that's the fun part - what's gonna happen?

Spike could come back - human, vampire w/o soul (which sounds a lot like 'undoing' what he did, so probably not), still vamp w/ soul - but still diff from Angel, so the two could 'compare notes' or something.... even in human form - he could be quite different - he could be William -bookish and geeky, or he could be a human version of Spike-vamp-with-soul (which would kinda suck the life out of the Shanshu prophecy -no pun intended) --

Or, Joss could completely surprise us and Spike could come back as a dog or some other demon or whatever -- we don't know - heck, Joss might not even know yet (but I hope he has some idea, b/c he should be working on the season opener to Angel now) ----

Btw - this is the only thing for AtS S5 I'm spoiled on -- I don't wanna know anything else -- so, please, if you find something specific about how Spike will return - please start a new thread and mark the spoilers!! (Maybe a 'spoiler country' thread like Ob used to do in BtVS) --- ;)
 
I'm not spoilered for anything else in Angel either - and I would also like to keep it that way. As much as I loved Obcooke's Spoiler Country threads, they are a minefield if you only want to know certain small factoids, rather than the whole plot to come.

It was impossible to miss all the hype about JM coming to Angel - I'd be amazed if there are any Buffy fans that don't know this one spoiler already!
Unlike H2's reaction to this news, I didn't find it spoiled Buffy's finale at all. If anything I was probably more surprised than if I hadn't already heard the spoiler.

Buffy 7.22 spoiler:
I assumed he'd live thru the ep, so it really caught me out when he dusted. If I hadn't know about his move to Angel already, I probably would have expected him to die, what with needing a little redemption and everything!
 
BtVS 7.22 spoiler -- response to Tabitha -

Well, yeah - since I knew he was moving, I wasn't expecting him to dust, but I wasn't expecting him to die anyway. However, the way the ep played out, I would have guessed by about 1/2 way through. I also knew one of the Scooby gang was gonna die too - was kinda thinking it was gonna be Xander, but had an inkling it would be Anya b/c Emma didn't wanna do any more stuff w/ BtVS and that universe


Yeah - like I said in the first post - I'll be extremely surprised if anyone a fan of either or both shows makes it through the entire summer w/o learning about this - as excited as the WB is about this 'move' and everyone else just talking about it all over everywhere --- I doubt you could make it through the next month w/o finding out -
 
Especially with sites like Buffy.nu and Slayage doing the spoilage in the TITLES of their news items! They could have been a bit more subtle with that one.
 
yeah - and the WB were NEVER gonna sit on that story -- JM? yeah right - they were gonna make sure the WORLD knew they'd made THAT deal ---
 
I know, I know, but you'd think that ten days is hardly gonna make much of a difference!
 
obviously the WB thought so -- I don't even know if Joss tried to get 'em to sit on it -- he knew they wouldn't - so he might not have even tried -- or he might have done the obligatory - "Hey, could you wait a week before you throw this to everyone?" -- which would have earned him a rousing chorus of hysterical laughter --

Mostly - I'm just loving that we'll get to see Spike more -

would be kinda cool if they could get a spin-off running - and maybe use Dawn - maybe not as the central character, but use her -- she's such a great character -- maybe she'll swing by LA and stop in to see Spike! I miss their on-screen relationship -- all friendly and stuff -- b/c did ya notice that she hardly said a word to him after she threatened to set him on fire? geeeeez ---
 
She might be a bit more friendly to him now considering that he just
saved the world

I don't know how I want Spike to come back - not as vamp w/ soul - the only two souled vampires in the world in the same show? it's a bit 'this town ain't big enough...' - not as human, William's great for the odd episode but not as a regular character - too iritating, plus he wouldn't have any powers but I'd like to see him as sort of superhuman or more than human if that makes any sense - sent back by the Powers to help Angel maybe (doesn't necessarily have to be Shanshu), I don't know but he should definitely still have powers plus be different from how we've seen him before, although still have the old Spike sarcasm shining though sometimes. I also think that Joss has got to be lining JM up as a replacement lead if DB ever decides to leave, so can't see him being ordinary. Oh also, he's got to have no memory or have a mission or something, to explain why he doesn't go looking for Buffy straight away.
 
If he comes back w/ amnesia - I quit. That's worse than having him come back as a dog or something. Cordy already showed w/ amnesia - and look how swell that turned out --

I love William though - but JM's already said he doesn't think he'll be brought back as human. But William is great! He's so cute - one of my fave characters from the Whedonverse -- so simple, yet so deep and layered -- if that makes any sense -

And, as much as I'd love to see William show up - yeah, he wouldn't offer all that much to the show - and they've done the 'bring the vamp back as human' bit already -- Darla -- and she just wanted to be vamped again -- considering William wasn't all that happy w/ his life before his siring, he'd possibly want the same thing --

As for vamp with a soul #2 - why not? they're so different. Spike's still the bad-ass w/ the bad attitude about things. Remember "Lies My Parents Told Me"?? The end? yeah - that part --

He didn't kill Wood - but ONLY b/c he had killed Wood's mom - otherwise - Wood would have been a goner

Spike's still bad - he saved the world, sure, but he's not super-goody-goody just b/c he has a soul. He's trying hard to be 'not evil' - ie: he's not trying to end the world, suck it into hell, etc; he's not feeding on humans... - but he was mostly doing that stuff *for* Buffy - b/c she wanted him to be a 'good man' -- Now, with the move to Angel, and knowing that Buffy doesn't love him (b/c I don't really think she does - neither does JM from what I've read he said at cons) - he can try to be 'good' on his own - and not b/c someone wants him to be that way. (this is all total speculation here - I have no idea what Joss is planning and don't wanna know!) Or, he can come back and be annoyed at the world, or he could be ecstatic b/c he destroyed Sunnydale (didn't he wanna do that at one point? Until Angelus mucked up his plans? or sort of?) -- even though he did it to save the world.

Who knows --- I just want it to be exciting and interesting, not flat and boring.

I don't want Spike to join the Fang Gang - but I also don't want him perpetually on the outside looking in -- like he was on BtVS - he was never a part of the Scooby gang - they never let him all the way in -- and I don't want him shoved to the outside the entire time he's on Angel - not fair to the character to just keep shoving him into corners on every show he's on ----
 
i just hope that he has a reason or a purpose for being there not just to boost ratings and play second fiddle to Angel. Maybe he comes back cos he hasn't fufilled his destiny and become human rather than he has, maybe he'll come back as a vamp with soul only cleansed of the demon, maybe he'll come back as someone completely different - who knows? When do they start filming?
 
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