The Animatrix Reveals . . . . .

[SlimFace]

I saw two of the Animatrix episodes that were released on the internet. The two that I saw explained the history of how the Matrix came to be.

If you don't want to read the spoiler part, just know that the Matrix was created because we ****ed off the machines, not because they wanted to protect us from the scorched Earth that we had caused. It's a commendable idea, but it's not true. They're not just acting upon their Asimovian nature, which is to serve humans.

(THIS IS THE SPOILER PART!!!!)

Basically, like Morpheus said, we created AI and everything started there. At first, the machines were a bunch of menial robots doing all our work. They were treated really bad, but they didn't retaliate. Eventually, one of the robots killed its owner because it was going to be destroyed. Because of this, all the humans destroyed every robot they could find. Some got away and started their own home called 01 (zero one) in the Middle East. They tried to be recognized by the UN, but when they were rejected harshly, a war ensued.

They kicked our asses during the war, destroying every major city. To them, the only way to co-exist with us, was to make what we now know to be the Matrix. Basically, the reason I wrote this was to refute the idea that maybe the machines created the Matrix as a favor for us, because we had scorched the sky. That's plausible, but it's just not true for this story. They created the Matrix because we ****ed them off. There you have it . . . .

 

[pkgrl]

Could you add a spoiler warning to the title of this thread?

Thanks!

Anyway, I'm with you. I don't think that the machines have any kind of Asimovian leanings regarding humans. I think that once they figured out that humans were trying to kill them off by shutting the sun away from them, they decided to build themselves a great big "meat computer" (love that term now) and the Matrix was "born."

I do have to wonder though if the sky is still "scorched". I mean, the earth is pretty darn good at protecting itself (regardless of what we do to it) and I wonder if the machines just don't care about solar energy anymore. If the war that led to the sky being scorched happened 1,000 years ago, then the sky would have been healing all this time. Wouldn't it?

Don't the machines have a backup plan by now in case the meat computer crashes?

 

[Tabitha]

Nice synopsis of the Second Renaissance, however I don't think your argument conclusively refutes the idea of a benevolent matrix. Personally I tend to agree that the Matrix is not intended to protect humans from t

The history described in the Second Renaissance is apparently from the Zion mainframe. This would be the same Zion mainframe that is unaware of the five Matrix reboots and believes it is roughly the year 2199?

That this information is suspect leads me to think that there is little information held by Zion that could be totally reliable.
The Architect does appear to confirm most of the Zion version of history, apart from the five reboots, and whether you subscribe to the idea that programs cannot lie, his words are vague enough to be reinterpreted in a number of ways. Not forgetting, of course, that there is a possibility that the Architect is not 'head of the food chain", so to speak. Whether he tells the truth or not, he can only operate with the information that he has, and who's to say that there isn't a larger power hiding facts from him? That he is simply part of a Matrix-within-a-Matrix simulation?

I am not just trying to be pedantic with this argument, just trying to keep open the possibility that the information we have been given is not necessarily the truth, and therefore no conclusive statements as to how the war began (If there even was a war?) and exactly what the ultimate purpose of the Matrix is can really be set in stone.



And, to answer pkgrl's idea about the Sky healing - I'm no geologist/meterologist, but I have come to my own conclusion that scorching the sky was something that the humans who carried the procedure out would manually reverse at a later date if they were successful. If the sun were blocked, wouldn't the biosphere slowly die? If it dies, then what are the chances of the planet being able to clean the mess up naturally? I think whatever the agent was that was used was probably designed to be resistant to weather patterns, and to last a long time, so as to run down the machines power reserves.

Blocked out sun-->plants and animals die (which begs the question, howcome there is breatheable oxygen outside the hoverships?).

I think that the cycle of life would be pretty much broken, and that either new species would slowly evolve and adapt over centuries, or that the planet would just become completely uninhabitable.

 

[SlimFace]

I'd like to agree that the humans would've scorched the sky with an agent that was reversible, but we must realize that at this time, the machines were much more technologically advanced. If we were to have scorched the sky in a reversible way, then the machines would just have figured out a way to reverse it, then destroy all the humans.

Also, is the story of the Second Renaissance stored in the Zion mainframe? If so, then your conclusions would be valid (namely, the one that states that the information is faulty). Otherwise, it'd probably be told by the machines....who might have their own bias.

The fact that there is breathable oxygen outside the ships might be evidence pointing to the fact that there is a Matrix within the Matrix. Perhaps this is what the mother of the Matrix thought up: the people who reject the Matrix get to live in this sucky-ass 'real world' and wish they had taken the freakin' blue pill.

 

[Dave]

I'm sure that the decision to 'scorch the sky' was made in the hope or knowledge that it would be a temporary procedure, or could be reversed. Plans do not always go the way they are meant to, and the decision seemed to be made in haste, so who knows.

BTW the 'History of the Second Renaissance' gives an economic argument for the 'war with the machines' too. Zero One was producing electronic goods at rock bottom prices, destroying the world economy.

Does anyone think that if there is really a "Zion Matrix within a Matrix", one possibility that has not been discounted, then the Earth could have been completely healed in the hundreds of years since the war ended (while the Matrix was rebooted 5x) but that the humans in Zion will never know?

 

[pkgrl]

Whether he tells the truth or not, he can only operate with the information that he has, and who's to say that there isn't a larger power hiding facts from him? That he is simply part of a Matrix-within-a-Matrix simulation?

This is something I began wondering about when someone else mentioned the possibility that there might be a "higher" machine than the Architect. After all, the Architect is only a program, too. The Architect admitted that it created the Matrix... but nothing else. Who's running the machines that are outside the Matrix?

...but we must realize that at this time, the machines were much more technologically advanced. If we were to have scorched the sky in a reversible way, then the machines would just have figured out a way to reverse it

Exactly! So either the sky has already been cleansed, or it's irreversably contaminated and the atmosphere of Earth is poisonous. Like Tab said: "Blocked out sun-->plants and animals die." If the first is true, then there'd be no problem with the air outside the hovercraft being breathable, but then the humans in the "real" world (including those on the Osiris who were apparently on the surface) would know that the sky is no longer scorched and we might wonder why they never tried to return to the surface. But if the second is true, then there probably wouldn't be breathable air ouside the ships, but the picture the humans have of the surface would still be accurate. In either case, I think this only furthers the argument that the world Morpheus, et al think is real must be another level of the Matrix.

Now I wanna see The Second Renaissance again! Sheesh! :erm:

 

[Tabitha]

Regarding the blacked out sun:
What motivation would the machines have for clearing it up? If they found a good alternate source of energy (meat batteries - still love that phrase), that not only provides energy but also contains their enemies, what would it matter if the sky is scorched? Perhaps if solar power was a much simpler form of energy for the machines to process it might be worth the effort of cleaning the atmosphere, but if not, why bother?

I doubt the atmo would clean itself up over such a relatively short period of time, but I can't really see the machines having a motivation to do it either.



And BTW, I don't have my copy of Animatriz handy, but I am pretty sure the Second Renaissance begins with the viewer "accessing Zion's mainframe" or history logs, or something to that effect. I think all the psychedelic (sp?) scenes are us navigating the computer records, or something. Definitely Zion's version of the history.

 

[pkgrl]

Remember, the machines aren't usuing just the meat batteries, but also a "form of fusion" according to Morpheus' explanation in the original film.

And if the Earth were to heal the sky itself over time (and remember that we don't know exactly how long it's been since the war) I doubt that the machines would try to stop it. They might not be "fixing" anything themselves... they don't need the same things we do in order to live, so plants and animals, even whole ecosystems, just don't matter to them they way they matter to us, so they don't have any need to "fix" anything on the Earth's surface. To them, it's not broken.

 

[SlimFace]

Would the machines really have cleared up the sky on their own (assuming the process was reversible). I'd like to think they're smart enough to have done so, because they know that they're giving Neo an option: he can either keep everything stable, except for Zion, or he can cause the death of everyone in the Matrix. They must know that it's possible and plausible for The One to choose to save Trinity. If they know it is, then they must have had a contingency plan that would allow for them to survive without the meat batteries.

Someone along the line will bring up the fact that the Architect said "There are levels of survivals that we are willing to accept." They'll say that this proves that the Earth is still scorched, because otherwise the level of survival would obviously be acceptable. Anyway....this quote doesn't prove anything except for the fact that the machines want the meat batteries to think that the sky is still scorched.

(please note my effort to make 'meat batteries' and 'meat computers' much more popular terms....because I think they're so cool!)

 

[cersei]

An excellent thread people .

I agree with Tab that it is well likely that since the origins is stored in Zion Archives it is only what the people think and if Zion is indeed a MIM, then what the people think is what the Machines would like them to think

I strongly suspect for most parts the Machine will attempt to duplicate as realistic a condition as known except where it may benefit them otherwise.

As for the line "There are levels of survivals that we are willing to accept." the Architect as always cleverly does not confirm nor deny Neo's concept of meat batteries (see? now u have me doing it too hehe)

Of course there has to be a higher "A.I." than the Architect since though he is the "father" by virtue of creating the Matrix, another Machine had to create his programme right? And since he says he will NOT be meeting Neo again, for cinema reasons, Neo will propably meet some form of Machine "leader"(and Smith is definately not it hehe he is the "bane" of all).

And if you read the Gnostic spin on Matrix, it is suggested this "ultimate maker" will look not a lot different from Neo

 

[SlimFace]

I don't think it's as simple as the Architect is a subordinate of whatever 'higher' program there is, and he is a subordinate of something else, etc.... Morpheus said that the AI spawned 'a single consciousness.' Of course, not all parts of the Matrix are of a collective consciousness (evidence: Oracle and Keymaker are working against the Matrix). But, I doubt that the higher-ups, like the Architect, have a ranking.....maybe they're just all part of one consciousness.

Any thoughts?

 

[cersei]

a SINGLE consiousness?

Hmm, have heard others speak of Moepheus quoting a SINGLE consiousness.....but am not so sure myself

I THINK he said, Humans gave birth to A.I., a SINGULAR consiousness which spawned a race of machines. .

Does this mean SINGLE? hmm

pkgrl if u reading this, HELP! hehe

 

[Spudnik]

i was once told that water gives us more oxygen that plants.

never the less, i myself dont believe the MIM theory simply because it goes against everything Keanu Reeves said in the interview.

but im debating the finnicky points, ill go away now.

 

[pkgrl]

Hey, spud, form your own opinions and debate away! That's what makes these forums fun. :naughty:

Neo: "You mean Artificial Intelligence."
Morpheus: "A singular consciousness that spawned an entire race of machines."

That help? (Good thing the DVD was still in the machine, eh?)

Frell! Now I wanna watch it again! :angryfire Thanks, guys!

 

[cersei]

pkgrl to the rescue! YAH! Ms walking encyclopedia of all things Matrix (and I am sure other things too hehe) what would we do without u

erm which Keaunu interview are u referring to Spudnik? please do tell as I would be omst interested to know

as for going away, please don't! I would have no one to argue with and as pkgrl says its what these forums all about

 

[pkgrl]

Yes, spud, stay! Share these finnicky points with us... as well as the interviews. Just make sure you post the interviews in the correct forum. If there are any possible Revolutions spoilers, post it in the Revolutions forum instead of this one.

And guys, don't applaude my encyclopedic knowledge of the Matrix. It's a sickness, I tell you. I still had the DVD in my player yesterday and watched all my favorite scenes... again... as well as the "bullet time" segment. And now I wanna see Reloaded again. It's a sickness! :disturbed

Now about water providing us more oxygen than plants: Are you saying that there would be no problem with people "outside" the Matrix breathing real world real air because the oceans of this beautiful planet would keep the atmosphere viable? Wouldn't there be a greenhouse effect from all our carbon dioxide? Or are the machines filtering that from all those people still plugged in? Maybe the air is breathable on the "outside" because the machines are filtering what is released by the meat batteries.

Too bad animatrix didn't reveal anything along those lines. Speaking of which, in that one eppy with the humans and machines working together, the people were working on the surface. If the MIM theory is true, are the W bros just continuing to mislead us? Or are we wrong about the MIM?

 

[Dave]

Re: Destroying the Sky

If all the plants died then we would be in trouble. There is a large amount of Oxygen dissoved in the oceans, but without plants making Oxygen it would soon go. However, I think that it is unlikely that all plants died though.

From 'The Matrix' and 'The Second Renaissance pt II' it isn't made clear exactly what humans we did to the atmosphere. So, we can only speculate on exactly what happened:

It looked like it turned black -- particulates like ash from volcanic erruptions or meteorite impacts would have the same effect.

That is what is supposed to have caused Mass Extinctions throughout the geological time record -- like the one which caused the extinction of the Dinosaurs.

There have been numerous Mass Extinctions -- most caused even more species to die out than the end of the Triassic Period one which everyone knows about. But in every case some species did survive, and the atmosphere recovered over time.

So, I would expect that after 500+ years (which I would see as an absolute minimum for 5 Matrix cycles) then plants, sealife, and small land animals would all be re-established without the Machines doing anything at all.

PS. Spudnik please post a synopsis of the 'Enter the Matrix' game. I almost bought it, but I decided that I would hardly play the game, I only wanted to get it for the extra story.

 

[pkgrl]

I think that it is unlikely that all plants died though.

Actually this is probably true. I was cruising around the What is The Matrix site, and the comic by Paul Chadwick there says as much. If you like comics at all, I recommend it as a good read. If you don't usually read comics, check it out anyway as an interesting sideline Matrix story. Basically, it explains why the Zionites have bread and allows us to theorize why they have more "normal" food (besides the "runny snot" the soldiers have to eat onboard the hover crafts). :eek7:

Gonna have to check out some of the extras on the Animatrix DVD soon. Especially before the comic con. (You never know when someone will bring up anime while you're there. )

 

[cersei]

being a comic reader myself, I agree that the Matrix free comics are well worth reading (I in fact downloaded all of them hehe). ALl vey good writers inc Paul Chadwick of Concrete fame.

I have the orginal "withdrawn" Matrix comics myself. Also have newer David Laplan one which is a great story...it actually shows what happenend when a crew is stuck in Matrix as rest of his crew mates killed in accident in real world....brillant stuff

 

[azgaflamazuk]

Does the scorched earth have oceans anymore? We never see them.