The Seven, the Seven and the Seven

[Gazz]

** Potential spoilers ***


Here now, as per a discussion with a friend of mine.

Anyone notice that the main recurring theme throughout all the novels has been the number seven? And, most importantly, that the next book happens to have -avatars- for each of the seven gods in king or castellan form?

For instance.

The Warrior - Jaime
The Stranger - Sandor
The Maiden - Sansa
The Crone - Olenna
The Smith - Gendry
The Mother - Dany
The Father - Mance

(some of these are reaching, obviously, but perfect fits are Gendry and Jaime, of course. Gendry and Dany are the keys to this whole theory - there are likely more 'fitting' characters for this thesis, certainly as far as the Crone goes)

And that there have indeed been seven different kings and queens now in Robert, Joffrey, Tommen, Stannis, Mance, Dany, and Euron? (there may be more afterwards if you consider Myrcella, but these have so far all been given crowns!)

I do get the impression that when all is said and done, the seven kingdoms will become exactly that - seven kingdoms. With a head at each. A Stark will come again, after all.

 

[Koopa]

7 is a magical number, but i dont think it all that important in the end, nor do i get how you get only 7 kings (Robb, Renly ,Balon) as for the fact about the seven gods representing a char is for me too farfetched, especially since there are many more who would probably fit the description better.
Not too forget that i personally find the 7 gods to be pathetic compared to the Old Gods and R'hollor so far.

 

[the smiling weirwood]

The power of the Seven has yet to be proven. Or for that matter, the other gods, but the power of their followers has. R'hllor followers apparently are well versed in sorcery and have demonstrated power that supposedly comes from R'hllor numerous times and the magic of the green dream has been shown to us by Bran and the Green Dream is associated with the Old Gods. The Seven have yet to show us the goods.

 

[Weasel Soup]

In westeros... Arya is the shadow.

Assumed dead, goes by many names, assumed harmless and has one of the highest death tolls throughout the books..

Not to mention, she is know being trained, and to paraphrase, he goes by many names you may know him as the shadow.... her blindness is temporary.

She will be the second story arcs justice, the first story arc was the families fighting for control of westeros, the second will be he(or she) who controls the magic and best understands the theologies will clean up the remnants of the starved and depleted westeros. UnCat will be interesting , but it is arya who makes the story.

I thought breifly of starting a thread, who will survive, not so much who will win a game of thrones. Arya will, GG said as much. To add to that I will only add Sam and Tyrion.

 

[TK-421]

Not too forget that i personally find the 7 gods to be pathetic compared to the Old Gods and R'hollor so far.

I guess that how the "Barbarian tribes" also felt about the Romans and their Christian God...

 

[Winters_Sorrow]

Well to be fair TK - there's not much pillars of fire & partings of sea in the AD period of history. He's obviously slackened off.

I think the point KB was making was that the followers of R'hllor & the Old Gods have shown themselves to have additional powers (although it's arguable that Bran's ability may be genetic rather than faith-based) whereas the followers of the Seven don't seem too. This may begin to change with the resurgence of the Faith in the last book however.

 

[Koopa]

I guess that how the "Barbarian tribes" also felt about the Romans and their Christian God...

When the Romans first invaded the "barbarian tribes" they believed in Roman Gods(half of wich they took over from Greece, or adapted their own to a greek image), it is only during the reign of Augustus that Jezus was born and after that it still took some time before the roman empire renounced their gods for the christian god. Therefore i do not see how your response makes much sense. Especially when you consider that the romans where stopped east by barbarian tribes and where forced to make a known and recognised border to their realm. About 500 years later the roman empire was destroyed leaving only Constantinople as vestige.

The Barbarian tribes converted to christianity with Clovis and its likes though after that

 

[Koopa]

Well to be fair TK - there's not much pillars of fire & partings of sea in the AD period of history. He's obviously slackened off.

I think the point KB was making was that the followers of R'hllor & the Old Gods have shown themselves to have additional powers (although it's arguable that Bran's ability may be genetic rather than faith-based) whereas the followers of the Seven don't seem too. This may begin to change with the resurgence of the Faith in the last book however.

As for the bible, i always find it amusing that there are not 1 but two creations of men ^^ and that in OT God is vengeful and does not mind stricking down his foes and killing the adversaries and that in NT he is all about forgiveness and love

You might have noticed that i am not and active beliver even though i was baptised and all that came after. even more, often i wonder that if god does exist that it would be wrong to worship him, after all we are supposedly created in his image wich means he has a big great evil side to him.

In truth i am almost positive he does not exist like 99%, that dead is jus dead.
And even if i am wrong, he is supposed to be oh so forgivefull, so i will just have to say that i was wrong. That should be enough if he is what he claims he is. I mean it will be genuine then for then i know the truth, though i do not have my hopes up for life after death. Call me a pessimist if you will

OW OW OW this is the 7th post

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

I've always felt a good reason to have faith in any religion is; if yer wrong, so what...you have no one around to tell you I told you so.

But spinning it back around to the OP. If yer going to compare the Seven abstractly to the current characters you need to start with the major POVs and move from there...

Uncat would get to be the Crone
Dany the Mother
Sansa the Maiden
Brienne the Warrior
Arya the Stranger (but I do recall the Stranger having an evil aspect no?)
Jon the Smith (remaking the Nights Watch is his only focus)
not sure on the Father but not Mance, just not prominent enough....maybe Jaime as he takes on the mentor aspect to both the Maiden and Tommen while actually trying to save the realm

But I dont think theres any correlation there....as always though I know nothing

 

[Boaz]

Gazz, seven is a recurring number, but is it the key to the story? I doubt it.

The Seven faces of the God of The Faith.

The Seven-pointed Star, the holy book of The Faith.

The seven members of the Kingsguard.

The Seven Kingdoms of Westeros.

The seven members of Robert's Small Council... The Hand (Ned), The Master of Coin (Petyr), The Master of Whispers (Varys), The Master of Laws (Renly), The Master of Ships (Stannis), the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard (Barristan), and The Grand Maester (Pycelle).

The seven singers for Joff's wedding.

Ser Jorah broke seven lances (iirc) against Ser Jaime to be tourney champion and win his bride, Lynesse Hightower.

Seven members of Arianne's revolt... Arianne, Arys, Garin, Sylva, Drey, Gerold, and Myrcella.

Other numbers might be more significant. For example...

Three - dragons of Aegon, dragons of Dany, children of Cersei's incest, Baratheon brothers, betrayals of Dany, three kings killed by Melisandre, three emotionally unstable Tully siblings, castles occupied by the Night's Watch, ships of Dany, Lannister siblings, Baratheon kings, blood riders for Drogo and later for Dany, times Jon breaks his vows (running away, joining the Wildlings, loving Ygritte), hills of King's Landing, judges for Tyrion's second trial, children of Doran Martell, members of Brienne's party being hung...

 

[TK-421]

Well, thanks for the history lesson, although Clovis does not apply to those beyond Hadrian's Wall...Regardless, I would not call the Seven "pathetic". Maybe not your cup of tea if you were choosing religions. Now that the Faith has armed itself with the King's permission and the small folk and lesser lords are flocking to its ranks, it will be a force to be reconned with by anybody who claims the Iron Throne. But is the number 7 of some significance. Maybe but I don't see any connection yet.

We also forget another set of beliefs figured prominently in AFFC: The Drowned Man and its most zealous follower Aeron.

 

[Winters_Sorrow]

I think you would have to alternate the 'Seven' for each book as it is a bit unfair to label Catelyn as a crone for the entire saga.
Here's mine

AGoT
The Crone - Old Nan
The Warrior - Jamie Lannister
The Smith - Eddard Stark
The Stranger - Varys
The Maiden - Daenerys Targaryen
The Mother - Cersei Lannister
The Father - Jeor Mormont

ACoK
The Crone - Tanda Stokeworth
The Warrior - Robb Stark
The Smith - Varys
The Stranger - Melissandre/Jaqen
The Maiden - Sansa Stark
The Mother - Catelyn Stark
The Father - Davos Seaworth

ASoS
The Crone - Olanna Tyrell
The Warrior - Samwell Tarly
The Smith - Jon Snow
The Stranger - Walder Frey
The Maiden - Margarey Tyrell
The Mother - Daenerys Targaryen
The Father - Tywin Lannister

AFfC
The Crone - Catelyn Stark
The Warrior - Brienne of Tarth
The Smith - Aeron Damphair
The Stranger - Euron One-Eye
The Maiden - Arianne Martell
The Mother - Sansa Stark
The Father - Petyr Baelish

No-one was more surprised than I when I realised there was no place on this list for Tyrion or Ayra. Odd.
To put this in some sort of context these are my 'definitions' for each of the aspects.
The Crone - a (usually) wise older woman who advises others.
The Warrior - a prolific fighter or someone who has achieved a resounding martial victory (and yes, I do mean Sam! Who else has killed an Other, survived alone in the wild North and trekked across the Narrow Sea?)
The Smith - someone who tries to keep things 'together' or fix what was once broken.
The Stranger - someone not seen before. In the shadows. Usually with a malevolent or unknown agenda.
The Maiden - an innocent (girl) usually young, naive and unworldly.
The Mother - someone who cares deeply for those in her charge and will do anything to protect/nuture them.
The Father - a leader. Someone (male) who takes another under his wing to teach/mould the way a father would his son.

 

[the smiling weirwood]

Okay Boaz, loving a woman is not breaking vows. He didn't marry her of father children. So, no vows broken there. He did defect, even if falsely and on orders, but I know you like to get ticky.

 

[TK-421]

WS: Old Nan, Tanda Stokeworth...is that the sound of grasping at straws?

Good list otherwise (except why would Varys be the Smith in ACoK?) and I agree with your assessment of Sam. In AFFC the Stranger could also be Doran Martell.

 

[Winters_Sorrow]

(except why would Varys be the Smith in ACoK?)

I regard him as the only character (male) in ACoK interesting in maintaining or repairing the Kingdom. All other male protaganists baring Stannis had declared themselves King through force of arms rather than right.

And yes, Old Nan & Tanda were the only people I could think of. The fact I had to choose a woman rather than a man disqualified people like Maester Aemon who I think was much more suited. Oh well.

 

[Boaz]

Okay Boaz, loving a woman is not breaking vows. He didn't marry her of father children. So, no vows broken there. He did defect, even if falsely and on orders, but I know you like to get ticky.

lol... nice to have a laugh before bed.

I understand the words of the Oath say not to take a wife or beget children, but engaging in sexual intercourse is like playing Russian Roulette. The oath does not specify celibacy, but I think celibacy is it's intent.

Jon did not consider Ygritte his wife, but according to Wildling customs she considered herself practically a spearwife.

 

[the smiling weirwood]

No, avoidance of emotional bonds is it's intent. Sex does not necessarily mean emotional attachment that might lead to mixed loyalties. He did develope said bonds but we're talking about the vows. And a spearwife is married to her spear, not a wife with a spear.

 

[Boaz]

And a spearwife is married to her spear, not a wife with a spear.

Really? I should read more and post less.

 

[Boaz]

I was reading the Eddard chapter today when he wakes up with a broken leg and I was struck by the number seven.

Eddard dreams of taking six men with him to the Tower of Joy to rescue Lyanna. The seven of them face off with three of the Kingsguard. While I was reading, thoughts of foreshadowing, the Faith, and the three heads of the Dragon popped into my head.

The Faith has a god with seven personages. In Ned's dream he lists his companions. Martyn Cassel, Jory's father; Theo Wull, described as faithful; Ethan Glover, he used to be Brandon Stark's squire; Mark Ryswell, "soft of speech and gentle of heart"; Howland Reed, the Crannogman; and Lord Dustin. It occured to me that these might represent the the faces of the God of the Faith as he turned his face against House Targaryen. Martyn = the Father; Faithful Theo = the Smith; Young Ethan = the Maiden; Gentle Mark = the Mother; Howland = the Stranger; Lord Dustin = the Warrior... leaving Ned as the old man dreaming of long lost days to be the Crone.

Arrayed against the Seven were three of the Kingsguard. Ser Oswell Whent, the Black Bat; Ser Gerold Hightower, the White Bull; Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. Danaerys' dragons are colored black, white and green. Whent and Hightower exemplify black and white nicely, but the colors of House Dayne seem to be purple and silver. Stretching this, I'd have to say that Arthur's nickname and his sword are harbingers of light... light brings about life and growth... green is the color for life and growth.

Is this a foreshadowing of the divine war between the Seven, the Old Gods, the Drowned God, Rh'llor, and the Other? Have the Seven forsaken House Targaryen? If only two of the Seven survived this battle, does this mean anything to the end of the ASOIAF story?

Or does this mean that the Seven have claimed Lyanna's child to be their champion? What if the hand of the Seven reached out and used Ned Stark from the far north to hide their champion? Was it to bring him to the Wall to fight the Other?

When Jon fled the Wall to join Robb, he was brought back by seven of his brothers. Is this foreshadowing of the Seven's hand upon Jon?

I know these are not well thought out... I'm just posing questions.

One last idea... could Dany's bloodriders (Aggo, Rakharo, and Jhogo, iirc) be the dragon's riders?

 

[stonStark]

I am surprised, no I need word that means more then surprised.....
I never saw that… it …it could be….
I am still horrified whit the though of all that….
What it means bugs me?? 7 will destroy 3??

p.s. Boaz for our leader!!!