Thoughts on comma rule...

[BookStop]

What are your thoughts on the comma rule where you seperate elements in a series? Do you use the conjunction, and, as a comma or use the Oxford comma?

Chloe grabbed the stuffed llama, a can of baked beans and her cell phone.

or

Chloe grabbed the stuffed llama, a can of baked beans, and her cell phone.


I'm partial to the latter, but I've noticed the comma being left out lately more often than not. My kids are even learning 'and' replaces the comma, but this is not what I was taught. I'm wondering if it is a valid change to the comma rule, or are people just loosening up a bit and not caring.

 

[Paige Turner]

I think the current style guide does not use the serial comma. Personally, I listen to it in my head, and if you'd put a pause in when you read it aloud, I put the comma in the writing. That, though, is just me.

 

[Green]

I've always been taught not to use the comma before "and" at the end of a list. Otherwise, you're creating a whole different sentence. Think that's in Strunk & White, too.

The second sentence you posted makes me think you're trying to say the stuffed llama was a can of baked beans, and then the last part doesn't fit at all

 

[Briareus Delta]

My kids are even learning 'and' replaces the comma, but this is not what I was taught. I'm wondering if it is a valid change to the comma rule, or are people just loosening up a bit and not caring.

It's what I was taught too and I'm quite old. Therefore, I prefer not to use a comma with 'and'. Having said that, I've noticed that I've been getting lackadaisical with my use of punctuation recently. That's probably just the Alzheimer's, though....

 

[ray gower]

This is one of those questions like 'When do I use an Apostrophy' and the answer is, 'It depends'.

Strictly, according to the bluebook, the later is correct, or her baked beans double as a cell phone.

However it would not apply to a meal of 'Fish, chips and mushy peas', as one would not expect the peas to be served seperately.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

I think it's one of those style things that are neither correct nor incorrect -- but copy-editors will change it to conform to a "house style," in order to keep things consistent.

I was brought up to use the serial comma, and I see no reason to change my ways. Commas are, increasingly, being eliminated, but I see no reason to contribute to the slaughter of innocent punctuation.

 

[Paige Turner]

Commas are, increasingly, being eliminated, but I see no reason to contribute to the slaughter of innocent punctuation.

Hear, hear.

 

[Green]

Style changes with the times. You have to draw the line somewhere. When general consensus is that you've made a mistake, there's the line. 17th century prose probably wouldn't hold up these days.

Not that I'm saying the above comments are wrong or someone's made a mistake, cos I don't know that for sure. I'm just saying.

A recent/near-future example of what I'm talking about is text speak. If 90% of the population write "r u cming 2 da shopz lolz!!" instead of the English language equivalent, does that make it correct? Over my dead body.

But there you go. You gotta fight for your right to party (or correctly punctuate, in our case).

 

[Cloud]

absolutely use the series comma before "and"!

 

[carrie221]

What are your thoughts on the comma rule where you seperate elements in a series? Do you use the conjunction, and, as a comma or use the Oxford comma?

Chloe grabbed the stuffed llama, a can of baked beans and her cell phone.

or

Chloe grabbed the stuffed llama, a can of baked beans, and her cell phone.


I'm partial to the latter, but I've noticed the comma being left out lately more often than not. My kids are even learning 'and' replaces the comma, but this is not what I was taught. I'm wondering if it is a valid change to the comma rule, or are people just loosening up a bit and not caring.

I was taught in school that the 1st sentence is correct... you don't put a comma before and

 

[j d worthington]

When working as a typesetter, we had frequent reference to "styles" manuals and, since at least the mid- to late 1980s, the preference is to drop the final commas (as in the first example). This is a part of the continuing shift from prose based on oral speech rhythms and into prose based on "sight-reading", where the extra punctuation tends to make the page "look" more cluttered. It's one of those things like "rivers" on a page (spaces between words that, line by line, meander closely enough to make it look like the course of a river, down the page). Either one is, technically, correct, but the preference is increasingly for eliminating the comma before final conjunctions.

(One of Green's comments is interesting here: How many have read eighteenth century novels that are in their original style rather than "modernized" punctuation? Commas are literally all over the place, indicating a pause, even a very minimal pause, for oral narration. To modern readers, this just comes across as an incredible amount of punctuation without purpose, but it was perfectly justified by the fact that, at the time, prose was still very much influenced by poetry, which in turn was based on oration and oral narratives.)

 

[Cloud]

I've always been taught not to use the comma before "and" at the end of a list. Otherwise, you're creating a whole different sentence. Think that's in Strunk & White, too.

You are incorrect. Rule 2 of "Strunk & White" says:

"In a series of three or more terms with a single conjunction, use a comma after each term except the last.

Thus write,

red, white, and blue
gold, silver, or copper
He opened the letter, read it, and made a note of the contents."

My "Chicago Manual of Style," Rule 6.19 says: "When a conjunction joins the last two elements in a series, a comma--known as the serial or series comma or the Ocgord comma--should appear before the conjunction. Chicago strongly recommends this widely practiced usage, blessed by Fowler and other authorities . . . since it prevents ambiguity. . . .

The owner, the agent, and the tenant were having an argument.
I want no ifs, ands, or buts."

In fact, I've yet to see a well-regarded style manual that advocates the opposite. I don't care what they're teaching in schools these days, use of the series comma is not optional. Therefore, I say: go forth and use the series comma!

 

[mosaix]

Mr. Dale, English teacher, Oswald Road junior school 1955: "There is an implied comma before the word 'and'."

Never forgotten the man or the rule.

 

[Cloud]

ah, an implied comma. Like--a virtual comma. Did Mr. Dale have an invisible friend, too? (sorry, this is not meant to be insulting, just--what reference did Mr. Dale rely on?)

Part of what I do as a professional paralegal is proofread, and I rely on a written style guide. In addition to the two mentioned above, I use the Gregg Style Manual. (Which, of course, also endorses the use of the serial comma.) It really doesn't matter which style guide you use, for commas or anything else, as long as you are consistent. If you have some off-the-wall style guide that says leave off the series comma, then make sure all of your writing conforms to that style.

Thumb through the books on your shelf. I guarantee that most, if not all, use the series comma. Really, most people are so grammatically ignorant that this is a very minor point--the other rules of commas, such as using them for set-off, or parenthetical expressions, are far more important.

 

[Cloud]

also, I would like to point out that grammatical rules vary slightly between countries. Thus, the style manuals relied on in Britain likely contain different rules than US ones, so we may be arguing apples and oranges here. Rules between "English" and "American" also differ, I think on where to put the punctuation--before or after a quotation mark.

Some of the confusion may come from the words "before," after," and "last term." S&W says "use a comma after each term except the last." It does NOT say use a comma before each term except the last. Otherwise, it would be saying, write: "red, white, and blue, stripes." (Note comma after last term.) Don't put the comma after the last "term," put it after the conjunction and before the last term.

Confused yet?

 

[jackokent]

If you think about what comas are for, ie to make sense of the sentence then there doesn't seem to be a need before an "and". My personal view would be to consider the necessity for it every time. To split up lists a coma is useful but the word "and" also splits up lists and therefore replaces a coma in the examples above.

 

[Cloud]

You know, I'm just wondering exactly what source says it's okay NOT to use the series comma--besides misguided schoolteachers?

I've looked in several authoritative style guides and they ALL say to use it. So where does this seeming "rule" that it's okay not to use the series comma come from? "My teacher told me so" isn't good enough for me.

 

[mosaix]

ah, an implied comma. Like--a virtual comma. Did Mr. Dale have an invisible friend, too? (sorry, this is not meant to be insulting, just--what reference did Mr. Dale rely on?)

Part of what I do as a professional paralegal is proofread, and I rely on a written style guide. In addition to the two mentioned above, I use the Gregg Style Manual. (Which, of course, also endorses the use of the serial comma.) It really doesn't matter which style guide you use, for commas or anything else, as long as you are consistent. If you have some off-the-wall style guide that says leave off the series comma, then make sure all of your writing conforms to that style.

Thumb through the books on your shelf. I guarantee that most, if not all, use the series comma. Really, most people are so grammatically ignorant that this is a very minor point--the other rules of commas, such as using them for set-off, or parenthetical expressions, are far more important.

Just searched for 'series comma' on UK web sites (I am British, live in the UK and this is a UK web site) most recommend omitting the comma before the 'and'.

I don't need to thumb through the books on my shelf. Whenever I see a comma before the 'and' I always make a mental note - I rarely see it.

I'm sure that Mr. Dale had a reliable reference, probably his own teacher at the same age. He also taught me how to spell colour and aluminium.

My point is that I speak and write English, you speak and write American. Nothing wrong with that, they are different languages and we could waste an awful lot of time pretending that they aren't.

If you proofread an English document and make any changes in line with your style rules, you are not correcting - you are translating.

 

[BookStop]

He also taught me how to spell colour and aluminium.

Is that really how y'all spell aluminum?

 

[j d worthington]

So did we, originally.... In fact, it was still an acceptable variant spelling here in the U.S. as late as 1960, according to the Webster's Unabridged I have from that period.

The history is as follows: "1812; < NL, alter., by Humphrey Davy, of alumium, which was first proposed; aluminium formed after other metals in -ium"