SoST Quarterfinals: Syrio Forel vs Bronn

[Orys Baratheon]

I went with Bronn merely by extent of what has been revealed of their abilities in the books. As has been said, Syrio's one true battle in the book apparently ended in his death. I do think that GRRM killed him off. He served his purpose in setting Arya down her path and with just a wooden sword was overwhelmed and killed. That being said, I could be wrong.
Meanwhile Bronn has continued to do well for himself and has shown himself to be a competant and dangerous opponent.

 

[Centurion]

Boaz, old horse, you may differ,

For me, the fight against 5 or so Lannister guardsmen with a wooden sword where he reduced them to being either 'down, dead or dying' is enough to prove to me Syrio is a great master. And i believe with all my heart that he either vanquished or escaped from Ser Meryn. As you know GRRM does not shy away fromt he killing of the readers' favourite characters, and i believe just the fact that he as omitted what happened to Syrio proves he must be still alive.

Bronn, is undoubtedly a very very dangerous fighter, i think he'd give the Hound a good run for his money. But at the end of the day, he's but a sellsword, a man for whom his sword is his chief tool no doubt, and i remember GRRM describing Bronns sword as an extension of his arm, but nevertheless Syrio Forel is a High Master of the sword.

 

[Boaz]

Centurion, so you think Ser Meryn either lied about killing Syrio or else decided not to mention to Cersei the fact that he escaped?

I agree Syrio's performance against the five red cloaks was highly impressive and that he is a High Master. Perhaps, it is the fact that I have no experiential knowledge of arms of any type that I have a hard time getting my mind around Syrio, unarmored and holding a three foot needle, defeating a man in full armor.

I want to see Syrio Forel fight Inigo Montoya.

 

[Florian the Fool]

But does Syrio know that Inigo Montoya is not left-handed?

 

[Storm Centurion]

Boaz

Would Bronn necessarily fight Syrio in armor? Do we know? We know Bronn is cagey. We don't know the tactic he would use. We know that in the Aeryie, he chose to be the unarmored guy because he understood the advantages and disadvantages and went with the tactic he deemed most likely to give him a chance at that time. He showed his adaptability and ruthlessness.

The things is, one probably doesn't get to be First Sword of the Sealord of Braavos by not being just as wily and cagey, as adaptable and ruthless as well as outright skilled.

The thing that tips the balance for me is Syrio's experience. He may be older and maybe even a little slower but I think he has probably seen a lot of tricks and he lived through them. We don't know he died for sure and I think (as Centurion already stated) Martin wouldn't have shied away from the death if he had died. Not letting us know for sure gives him an out and leaves the door open.

Now if I remember correctly, besides being a sellwsord who won a fight no one expected him to win, Bronn really has only the fact that he is still alive. Which isn't necessarily a small thing.

And about Ser Meryn. ( Hypothetical)

If I had failed Cersei by not killing Syrio, I might lie too. Rulers that behave like Cersei usually fail because of disloyalty, in its many forms. Cersei's tendency to overreact and act irrationally would naturally make her servents reluctant to give her bad news. So they lie. Then the ruler starts getting poor intelligence and making decisions based on poor intelligence usually get one in a heap of trouble. People like Cersei forget things like don't kill the messenger. You need to trust your people and they need to trust you.
.

 

[Culhwch]

Quite frankly I'd be dissappointed if Syrio was still alive. That would be the cop out of cop outs. Sure, he downed the Lannisters, and frustrated Meryn, but when we last saw him Meryn had cut clean through his stick, and was looming. I doubt Syrio is the kind of man to turn tail, so he'd have stood and fought and died. If he had beaten Meryn, Meryn would eiter be a) dead or b) bloody, bruised and battered. Which he wasn't. Obviously, the lack of information on Syrio's end and the immediate appearance of Jaqen - mentioned as a very dangerous prisoner from the black cells - was meant to make us think, 'Well, maybe...' but in the end, he's dead. Possibly at the bottom of the Blackwater, or in a pot o' brown.

That said, he kicks Bronn's tryhard arse all over the Seven Kingdoms.

 

[Boaz]

I waited too long and missed my chance to vote.

SC, I don't know that Bronn would armor up to fight Syrio, I think it's what I'd do. It's like using a sledgehammer to kill a bee, I'll probably miss... but I love overkill. Anyway, I think Bronn would go in full plate because his speed, his experience in close quarters killing, and his sheer cunning all are less than Syrio's... if he fights Syrio's style, he loses... Bronn, imo, must play the part of Ser Vardis. Now, that being said, when these two meet in the ASOIAF finale Bronn will probably just be wearing leather.

You know, if I think something in this series is a certain way, then you can probably be sure that I'm wrong.

Culhwch, good observation on Meryn's apparent lack of wounds. Martin does a good job of providing small details without grand explanations. I do not remember any words saying that Meryn was hurt... such as the following.

Cersei fumed as she waited. She heard Ser Meryn's tired voice as the door opened, "The Grand Maester to see you, your Highness." Pycelle's beard and his robes seemed to glide as though carried on a breeze. As the Kingsguard limped out, Cersei chose her words carefully, "Grand Maester, I recall...

 

[Culhwch]

Culhwch, good observation on Meryn's apparent lack of wounds. Martin does a good job of providing small details without grand explanations. I do not remember any words saying that Meryn was hurt... such as the following.

Cersei fumed as she waited. She heard Ser Meryn's tired voice as the door opened, "The Grand Maester to see you, your Highness." Pycelle's beard and his robes seemed to glide as though carried on a breeze. As the Kingsguard limped out, Cersei chose her words carefully, "Grand Maester, I recall...

Good to see those sarcasm lessons finally paying off there, Boaz....

Fair enough. I still find it unlikely. Let's see if I cant refine my hypothesis. The way I see it, the fight could have ended two ways:

a) Meryn wins, Syrio dies.
b) Syrio wins, Meryn dies.

I'm almost certain Syrio told Arya he wouldn't run, so that option is out of the equation.

I can easily see Meryn winning and Syrio dying, but not before giving Meryn a rap across the knee and a pronounced limp the next day.

I cannot easily see Meryn winning and leaving Syrio alive after being slighted as he was.

I cannot see Syrio winning and leaving Meryn alive. If you can outline a scenario in which a man with half a stick incapacitates a man in plate armed with three feet of sharpened steel, I'll convert. Syrio may have disarmed Meryn, taking his sword. If so, Meryn dies. He doesn't just cop a kick in the shin.

Besides, Meryn is a Kingsguard, who presumably starts most morings with an energetic hit out in the yard. Accidents happen. Maybe he just kicked his toe getting out of bed. Maybe Cersei kicked him when she discovered the botch job he did on capturing Arya. Maybe he has arthritis. True, these are all very unlikely. I'm still standing behind my call that a reappearance of Syrio would be a little too Days of Our Lives for me...

 

[Storm Centurion]

"Like sands through the hourglass, these are the days of our lives..."

I still think that there is a reason that we were never told that Syrio died. He may have eventually, in Martin's imagination, but I think he left it open in case he felt the need to bring him back. Of course this is just a form of meta-gaming that we see in RPGs.

I can see a couple of scenarios were both Meryn Trant and Syrio survive. Most involve Syrio hitting, tripping, disarming or distracting Trant and getting away, knowing he can't last against an armored knight for too long then hope to take on the obvious reinforcements that will be coming.

Also, Boaz, I don't think Bronn is necessarily better at close quarters killing. Syrio has survived a long time himself. I think we would be kidding ourselves to think that he hasn't killed up close. Considering his status, I'm sure he has busted a few heads in whatever style or method the circumstances required.

 

[Koopa]

I think boaz said that syrio was probably better at close quarter fights

 

[Boaz]

I confess I am not the most lucid of writers.

SC, I meant that Bronn's ability in hand to hand is less than Syrio's.

Cully, my italicized paragraph was made up... by me! GRRM did not write that. I was trying to show the type of clue that Martin did not give us.

I apologize for the lack of clarity... I'll endeavor to make my posts crystal in 2007.

 

[Culhwch]

Cully, my italicized paragraph was made up... by me! GRRM did not write that. I was trying to show the type of clue that Martin did not give us.

And here I was thinking you were having a gentle dig... You should probably take it as a compliment I mistook your writing for George's. And I was sitting here trying to remember that scene, thinking I really needed to reread. D'oh!

 

[Boaz]

You should probably take it as a compliment

I will.