Harry Potter sucks

[summeriris]

I've never tried to bring JK down for any reason, although I do envy those riches of hers just a bit. I find her themes a bit lacking, I don't want to be hit over the head with the Racism = Evil! mallet. Her baddies aren't people, they're caricature comic book villains. The whole thing is too clean cut. Her themes are heavy handed, her creatures copy-pasted, her main characters a bit dull, with the secondaries being much more interesting.

They don't suck, I enjoy them for what they are, light adventure fantasy. The last two seemed a bit self important and heavy on the angst, which put me off. 1 to 3 I loved though. Sad thing is, if people didn't try to convince me that these books are somehow the second coming, I wouldn't feel the need to criticize so much.

Wow, what can I say except I must have read different books by Rowling than you. Go figure, there are two versions of the Harry Potter series out there written JK Rowling.

 

[Lioness]

Harry Potter helped me through several times of pretty bad depression. They helped me escape my world into a different, almost perfect one. Where people were strong, compassionate, and mostly happy.

They're easy to read, so it never felt like I had to trudge through the text. It wasn't an effort; I could just open the book, look at it, and escape.

So, uh, I'm a pretty die-hard Potter fan.

(Except I've lost book 3 )

 

[Rebell L]

Wow, what can I say except I must have read different books by Rowling than you. Go figure, there are two versions of the Harry Potter series out there written JK Rowling.

No you and I just have different perspectives on the same thing. I admit I was a bit peeved when I wrote that, A fan (the insane kind) wrote to me on another forum just to call me stupid and then act like a snotty brat just for not being an uber fan, and trying to be a reasonable critic. That doesn't change how I feel though, just wouldn't want you to get the wrong impression. Mostly I hate to be insulted for being critical of the popular (don't think Star Trek gets away either, and I love ST).

I analyse things into the ground and HP just doesn't live up to all that fans and critics say about it, to me. I do enjoy them though, except for the last two (Grimdark). I will admit I'm abit biast, as I don't like prophesies, black and white morallity and farmboy orphan hero type characters any more (Harry still fits the bill). I tend to skip them nowadays. Ah, as said, if it wasn't a huge thing I wouldn't even feel the need to comment.

I wish you'd elaborated a bit summeriris, I don't really know where we dissagree, see? I understand the series quite well and I see room for improvement. Now, if Rowling would write something new, away from HP and the strain of the fandom, that could be interesting.

 

[Erin99]

incidentally, that was my nickname when i worked in a restaurant. what is wrong with that exactly?

I've never read Harry Potter. I did see one movie (can't remember the subtitle) Anyway, I googled the original poster's book, and found this quote in the comments someone made about the sixth book of Harry Potter.
a link is here

Blimey. Is this thread still going? Don't take any notice of the original poster's remarks. The author was a troll and a very unwell man, from what I've read and seen:

Kenneth Eng - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Kenneth Eng, Author of Terrible Dragon Novels, Wants Credit for Virginia Tech Massacre | Table Of Malcontents

 

[summeriris]

No you and I just have different perspectives on the same thing. I admit I was a bit peeved when I wrote that, A fan (the insane kind) wrote to me on another forum just to call me stupid and then act like a snotty brat just for not being an uber fan, and trying to be a reasonable critic. That doesn't change how I feel though, just wouldn't want you to get the wrong impression. Mostly I hate to be insulted for being critical of the popular (don't think Star Trek gets away either, and I love ST).

I analyse things into the ground and HP just doesn't live up to all that fans and critics say about it, to me. I do enjoy them though, except for the last two (Grimdark). I will admit I'm abit biast, as I don't like prophesies, black and white morallity and farmboy orphan hero type characters any more (Harry still fits the bill). I tend to skip them nowadays. Ah, as said, if it wasn't a huge thing I wouldn't even feel the need to comment.

I wish you'd elaborated a bit summeriris, I don't really know where we dissagree, see? I understand the series quite well and I see room for improvement. Now, if Rowling would write something new, away from HP and the strain of the fandom, that could be interesting.

My reply was vague because your original post was vague. Heavy themes, some creatures are copy pasted and dull main characters. I'm not being rude, well I hope not, but I did not find your post very expansive.
So what did I like about the Harry Potter series.
I liked the main theme which was that love is the most important aspect of the human condition. By love I do not mean people engaging in plumbing activities with their genitals. I mean the basic glue that hold families and friends together. The loyalty that is inspired by this love and the strength and joy we derive from it. This for me is the main theme of the novels. You may find this theme pedestrian but I do not. I also find her characters to be very human. They have their faults, tempers, and silly moments, but her heroes try to defeat the evil in their world. It seems hopeless at times but they keep trying and in the end succeed. I don't think this is a bad message to be frank. The Big Bad is somewhat simplistic, but Big Bads are simplistic. What do the Big Bads ever want in books or in real life? They want it all. This is not rocket science. In it's most basic essence, selfishness is a simple emotion.
Is Harry Potter a simple farm-boy on a quest? I suppose he is, but if you are looking for a fantasy novel without the hero quest, you might be in for a long look. All of the main series in fantasy seem to feature this trope. Dune, Lord of the Rings, EarthSea, The Dark Tower Series, Anne McCaffrey's Dragon Novels, Terry Pratchett's Disc World series, Andre Norton's Witch World, Conan the Barbarian. The list is endless. They all feature the Quest and that's just literature from the 20th century along with the first decade of the 21st. It's not counting the mythology from every culture on the planet that all features Quest tales. Is there something in our common humanity that draws everybody to this trope? I think there must be. I don't think of them as prototypes Luke Skywalker's as much as Us, exploring the better aspects of our natures. We all want to be the heroes of our own Quests and that is why they are so universally popular.
Did Rowling Copy/Paste her creatures. To a certain extent. She took a lot of the creatures in our mythologies and adapted them. She made her Centaurs complex with their own cultures and did the same with the Merpeople and Giants. I think she did a good job on them as they are just different enough to make them stand out from the common perceptions of them. I loved the Acromantulas. I thought that was a very original spin on acrophobia.
The secondary character that everybody mentions and seems to think is wonderful is of course, Snape. Now do I think that Snape is the literary creation of the 20th Century? Do I heck as like. But Snape is a very good creation. He is a nasty, cruel, pathetic excuse for a man, but he is a fascinating creation. Love him or loathe him, you do not easily forget him.
I hope that I expanded enough in this answer.

 

[Rebell L]

My reply was vague because your original post was vague. Heavy themes, some creatures are copy pasted and dull main characters. I'm not being rude, well I hope not, but I did not find your post very expansive.

Yeah, I'm pretty bad at explaining things, it's a real nuisance. Plus I was agitated and just wanted to get it out there.

I liked the main theme which was that love is the most important aspect of the human condition. By love I do not mean people engaging in plumbing activities with their genitals. I mean the basic glue that hold families and friends together. The loyalty that is inspired by this love and the strength and joy we derive from it. This for me is the main theme of the novels.

Plumbing? D'you think it may be to do with being a total cynic, then? I mean, I'm a total scrooge on occasion. I hope no orphans come along with the power of heart, or I'm doomed.

You may find this theme pedestrian but I do not. I also find her characters to be very human. They have their faults, tempers, and silly moments, but her heroes try to defeat the evil in their world. It seems hopeless at times but they keep trying and in the end succeed. I don't think this is a bad message to be frank. The Big Bad is somewhat simplistic, but Big Bads are simplistic. What do the Big Bads ever want in books or in real life? They want it all. This is not rocket science. In it's most basic essence, selfishness is a simple emotion.

I keep getting ear-worms reading this, first Huey Lewis and the News, and now Queen *I want it all*. Tangent, sorry. I'm not contesting the message, it's fine. Voldy seems unreal to me, I can't see him as the foreboding shadow he's supposed to be. I got a real sense of foreboding from Sauron, Darth Vader and others, just not him. I can't explain, it's more a gut feeling than anything. As for emotion, I don't feel emotionally engaged at all, and I'm all about emotion.

Is Harry Potter a simple farm-boy on a quest? I suppose he is, but if you are looking for a fantasy novel without the hero quest, you might be in for a long look. All of the main series in fantasy seem to feature this trope. Dune, Lord of the Rings, EarthSea, The Dark Tower Series, Anne McCaffrey's Dragon Novels, Terry Pratchett's Disc World series, Andre Norton's Witch World, Conan the Barbarian. The list is endless. They all feature the Quest and that's just literature from the 20th century along with the first decade of the 21st. It's not counting the mythology from every culture on the planet that all features Quest tales. Is there something in our common humanity that draws everybody to this trope? I think there must be. I don't think of them as prototypes Luke Skywalker's as much as Us, exploring the better aspects of our natures. We all want to be the heroes of our own Quests and that is why they are so universally popular.

I'd actually run a mile if an old guy with a macguffin knocked on my door. I realize there are many things that use your basic quest, everything a character does is a quest, even my character is on one. But, I'd like to see something that veers away from the basic Quest, strictly the finding of macguffins to save the world. When I say Quest I really mean "finding magic objects to defeat Dark Lords" I just forgot my own terminology. I have seem these a million times and want to find something new. I only just gave up trying to discard every cliche there is, because its impossible.

Did Rowling Copy/Paste her creatures. To a certain extent. She took a lot of the creatures in our mythologies and adapted them. She made her Centaurs complex with their own cultures and did the same with the Merpeople and Giants. I think she did a good job on them as they are just different enough to make them stand out from the common perceptions of them. I loved the Acromantulas. I thought that was a very original spin on acrophobia.

The secondary character that everybody mentions and seems to think is wonderful is of course, Snape. Now do I think that Snape is the literary creation of the 20th Century? Do I heck as like. But Snape is a very good creation. He is a nasty, cruel, pathetic excuse for a man, but he is a fascinating creation. Love him or loathe him, you do not easily forget him.
I hope that I expanded enough in this answer.

I thought Giant Spiders were a common thing in fantasy, and naturally associated with acrophobia? I'd call them a staple of the genre. I was thinking about your standard troll, unicorn, dragon etc. They just are. It's easy to come up with dragon breeds, the unicorn blood thing and thick as heck trolls. As I said, I suck at explaining. The world, to me, feels like an RPG universe with all the critters you'd expect to find. If it's a whole new world, it shouldn't feel so familiar, And I shouldn't be able to predict exactly what's coming.

What I meant about the secondaries was that I feel that everyone outside of the main trio has a more interesting story to tell. Snape has so much conflict in his life that only get's hinted at though Harry. Dumbledore has another side to him that would have been fun to explore earlier in the series. Neville is the kind of kid I root for in a story, he shows real bravery in the end and i would have liked to see him develop beyond Harry's limited vision. Same goes with many other characters, I feel like they have no life when not around Harry, like whenever he's away they just sit in a waiting room until he comes back.

Rowling does give them some autonomy beyond Harry at times, and hearing about it makes me wonder why I have to follow Harry. I can't stand camping either, which seemed like the whole middle of the last book.

I hope I explained OK, and I must away now.

 

[summeriris]

=Rebell L;1451173]Yeah, I'm pretty bad at explaining things, it's a real nuisance. Plus I was agitated and just wanted to get it out there.

I am not the greatest in explaining things either.

Plumbing? D'you think it may be to do with being a total cynic, then? I mean, I'm a total scrooge on occasion. I hope no orphans come along with the power of heart, or I'm doomed

I think that nobody is a total cynic. Scratch a cynic, find a disappointed romantic.

I keep getting ear-worms reading this, first Huey Lewis and the News, and now Queen *I want it all*. Tangent, sorry. I'm not contesting the message, it's fine. Voldy seems unreal to me, I can't see him as the foreboding shadow he's supposed to be. I got a real sense of foreboding from Sauron, Darth Vader and others, just not him. I can't explain, it's more a gut feeling than anything. As for emotion, I don't feel emotionally engaged at all, and I'm all about emotion.

Sauron was to distant to scare me, the Witch King and Saruman made me nerous, but I will be frank, (no jokes) I had faith in Gandalf. Darth Vadar, I am never afraid of machines. Hanibal Lecter, terrified me. It's not often you meet a werewolf/vampire but the chance of meeting a phsycopath? Voldemort scared me twice in the books, in Goblet of Fire and the opening of Deathly Hallows. But of course both times we met a phsycopath.

I'd actually run a mile if an old guy with a macguffin knocked on my door. I realize there are many things that use your basic quest, everything a character does is a quest, even my character is on one. But, I'd like to see something that veers away from the basic Quest, strictly the finding of macguffins to save the world. When I say Quest I really mean "finding magic objects to defeat Dark Lords" I just forgot my own terminology. I have seem these a million times and want to find something new. I only just gave up trying to discard every cliche there is, because its impossible.

Finding the 'magic objects' is what makes it fantasy. Finding yourself is what makes a drama. Both tropes are present in Harry Potter.

I thought Giant Spiders were a common thing in fantasy, and naturally associated with acrophobia? I'd call them a staple of the genre. I was thinking about your standard troll, unicorn, dragon etc. They just are. It's easy to come up with dragon breeds, the unicorn blood thing and thick as heck trolls. As I said, I suck at explaining. The world, to me, feels like an RPG universe with all the critters you'd expect to find. If it's a whole new world, it shouldn't feel so familiar, And I shouldn't be able to predict exactly what's coming.

Rowling set Harry Potter in the United Kingdom. It's hard to come up with a whole new monster in Scotland. We are not that alien. What Rowling did that was unusual was to take the mythologies that she knew and incorporate them in her stories in a way that made them seem ratinal. That was why I thought her take was unusual. 'Unicorns, yes they are real, would you like to pet one. Stay away from the centuars, they don't like to be messed with. How about a cup of tea.'
She made the mythological real. The only giant spider I read about was Shelob. Aragog may be based on her, but if so it was a nice nod to Tolkien. I still say it was a good spin on agrophobia, but I'm not scared of spiders.

What I meant about the secondaries was that I feel that everyone outside of the main trio has a more interesting story to tell. Snape has so much conflict in his life that only get's hinted at though Harry. Dumbledore has another side to him that would have been fun to explore earlier in the series. Neville is the kind of kid I root for in a story, he shows real bravery in the end and i would have liked to see him develop beyond Harry's limited vision. Same goes with many other characters, I feel like they have no life when not around Harry, like whenever he's away they just sit in a waiting room until he comes back.

Well that's what characters do when not on page, but I never got that feeling from the secondary characters in Harry Potter. For me Rowling did a good job breathing life into them and we learn a good deal of the time how people spent their summers., which you go into next.

Rowling does give them some autonomy beyond Harry at times, and hearing about it makes me wonder why I have to follow Harry. I can't stand camping either, which seemed like the whole middle of the last book.

I hope I explained OK, and I must away now

Harry is the Hero of the book. There were 5 chapters of camping, 36 chapters in the book. During that time Ron got drove mad by the locket and left. Harry and Hermione went to Godric's Hollow and met up with Voldemort and Nagini, Harry took a swim in a frozen pond, got rescued by Ron, Ron destroyed the locket and then they went to visit Luna. Alot happened in those 5 chapters.

 

[Rebell L]

Can we agree to disagree? I think I must have forgotten some of the last books, I'll read them all again to get a proper look without the huge gap between books. I'm glad you took the time to make rational arguments, some fans are a bit odd about their defense of the book and don't make convincing arguments, however passionate. Of course I'm not on an Anti rampage, this is like research for me, debate helps me think for when I practice my own writing.

I've run out of arguments

 

[A. S. Behsam]

As someone who faces/has faced more stress/pressure/limits and even life threatening situations than you can imagine, I'm proud to say I'm a Harry Potter fan and I have so many reasons to be. HP managed to get me through the most difficult situations in my life.

Never can imagine how my life would be if I hadn't read the series. I'm serious and honest about this. HP is the main reason I got interested in English, in literature and then in writing.

It's what inspired me to teach myself English and get accepted in university. It introduced me to the world of English literature and inspired me to read more books (here's to the people who think HP doesn't inspire reading other books as well) and now I can't spend the day without reading; the more I read different kinds of books, the more I'm happy.
And HP is the reason I managed to actually finish what I wrote. Back then I would write pieces but would never sit and write a complete work.

It's not just about the wonderful writing, or the amazing magical world or the very well developed characters; it's about how it makes you feel when you read it. Each of the people who like the HP series can relate to in their own way; each sees it in a different way and each lives through one of the characters.

In my country Harry Potter is bashed becasue the government/regime believe HP books "ruin the minds of our children", but the people who have read the books know they don't like them because there are serious similarities between the world they've turned the country into and the world Jo has created.

I can honestly tell you that each character, from the main characters to the minor ones, can be said to be based on one of these people.I can tell you that the atmosphere of the last book of the series is exactly how it is here right now. Exactly. The disappearances, the unfair trials, the murders and the lies... I can see all of it here.

And the fandom isn't a usual one. It's incredibly sincere and friendly. It's had all kinds of people interested. My mother's 42 and she loves the books. My brother's 25 and he loves them. My friend is 29 and she's in love with the series. Her husband is a 35 years old architect who knows about HP more than I do!

These are all besides the writing view to the books. I can talk about the story and the characters all day. It's funny how some people complain about Harry's character. Really makes me laugh. It's okay if you guys don't like the series, but please at least give some convincing reasons before bashing it. Your reasons are merely ridiculous. I can give a hundred reasons for loving the books, but I don't come and say "I love Harry Potter becasue Harry wears glasses and Voldemort's pet is a snake".

Be serious at least so you can be taken seriously.

 

[Simon tall]

I read the first HP but found it derivative, unoriginal and dull. So didn't bother with the rest.
But then I wasn't 10 years old when I read it...

 

[digs]

You must be vastly superior to those of us who enjoy the series as adults.

I can't pinpoint what it is that makes me love Harry Potter. For me it has a kind of homey feel that's hard to describe. Harry Potter inspires the same feelings in me as a roaring fireplace in winter. I'm aware that the writing style isn't up there with the literary masters, but it doesn't aim for that kind of ostentation. And every element of the Harry Potter world has been done a thousand times elsewhere - but it's the combination of those elements that make the series what it is.

To be honest, I feel a little sorry for those who don't get Harry Potter (and especially for those who hate it); for me it's a unique and incredibly enjoyable reading experience (which isn't to say that I haven't read better books - only that no other book has inspired the same feelings of fondness and loyalty).

 

[soulsinging]

I don't know about you guys, but harry potter is more like harry pothead.

This makes no sense. It's not even a joke, let alone criticism. However, it WAS my nickname when I waited tables...

I love HP. Sure it's derivative... so is Star Wars. But it's fun, the characters are well drawn, and each novel is plotted to perfection with a great mystery at the heart of it. What's not to love?

 

[Simon tall]

I didn't mean that i was superior in any way! As I understand it Rowling wrote those books for children and imagined them reading them as they grew up - hence the books become more complex as they go on to fit with teenage years.
I was trying to imply that if I had first read it when I was 10 I probably would have loved it!
Maybe I should reconnect with my inner child!

Simon Tall

 

[summeriris]

I didn't mean that i was superior in any way! As I understand it Rowling wrote those books for children and imagined them reading them as they grew up - hence the books become more complex as they go on to fit with teenage years.
I was trying to imply that if I had first read it when I was 10 I probably would have loved it!
Maybe I should reconnect with my inner child!

Simon Tall

Perhaps you should connect with your inner child. It is amazing how many 'children's books' end up on an adult's list of favourite books, and how many books are read for the first time by adults that then become favourites.

 

[Boaz]

Simon, I know what you mean about how stories can resonate with people of certain ages. I was eight when I started reading The Chronicles of Narnia. I loved them for being such a fun, dangerous, and wholesome fantasy. I picked them back up when I was thirty... and I was stunned at how the story had changed from a children's book into an adult Christian allegory. Aslan told Lucy that as she matured he got even bigger... and Lewis' story appeared the same to me.

When I was thirteen I read the John Carter of Mars series. I loved them for the otherworldly muscled heroes and the lovely damsels in distress. But upon rereading them recently, I was surprised by the unabashed pulp style and I was apalled at the glorification of The White Man's Burden.

At the age of forty, I picked up The Eye of the World, the first book of The Wheel of Time. I was bored stiff by the plot and I felt neither sympathy nor hatred for the characters. But I'm convinced I'd have read at least the first five books of the series, if I'd started reading as a teenager.

I'm sure I'd have loved Harry Potter as a child and as an adolescent. I don't know if I'd have liked HP in my twenties or thirties... but thankfully I did not read them until I was forty-one. I think I've gone through some life experiences that give me empathy or at least an understanding of characters like Sirius, Snape, and Riddle who have come to the point to decide to either find redemption or reject love.

As Benedick says, "Doth not the appetite alter? A man loves the meat in his youth that he cannot endure in his age."

Is any part of HP new or original? Not really. Have I seen similar plots and characters? Yes. But somehow, Rowling did it all again... and did it almost perfectly.

I don't have to dine on champagne, caviar, truffles and foie gras for every meal. When chicken fried steak with mashed potatoes and a cold beer is done perfectly, I'm perfectly content.

 

[summeriris]

Is any part of HP new or original? Not really. Have I seen similar plots and characters? Yes. But somehow, Rowling did it all again... and did it almost perfectly.

I don't have to dine on champagne, caviar, truffles and foie gras for every meal. When chicken fried steak with mashed potatoes and a cold beer is done perfectly, I'm perfectly content.

As 'Harry Potter' is essentially a hero quest the plot is one of the oldest in literature. So I suppose we have all read this trope before in other books and seen it in other films. But there is a reason this trope keeps getting recycled, as it is in the 'A Song of Ice and Fire' series. In that series we have Jon Snow and Daenerys, both of whom are on their quests. IMO, it's so popular because it is something that resonates strongly and deeply with us as humans. We are all on our own quest through life and we recognize this in these books. But the plot is not what made so many fans of the books keep coming back to them. No book/series becomes as popular as the 'Harry Potter' series if there is not enough meat on the bones of the plot to satisfy those that read and reread the books. The Harry Potter books have 'meat' and then some left over.
There is another series of book that has been published in the last decade with a fairly large fanbase. Those books are IMO very badly written and I don't think will stay the course, but quoting Josephine Tey, "Truth is the daughter of time.",
And only time will tell if these two series will still be around in another 20 years time. I think Harry Potter will be, I don't think Bella and her swain will survive

 

[RightersBlock]

You must be vastly superior to those of us who enjoy the series as adults.

I can't pinpoint what it is that makes me love Harry Potter. For me it has a kind of homey feel that's hard to describe. Harry Potter inspires the same feelings in me as a roaring fireplace in winter. I'm aware that the writing style isn't up there with the literary masters, but it doesn't aim for that kind of ostentation. And every element of the Harry Potter world has been done a thousand times elsewhere - but it's the combination of those elements that make the series what it is.

To be honest, I feel a little sorry for those who don't get Harry Potter (and especially for those who hate it); for me it's a unique and incredibly enjoyable reading experience (which isn't to say that I haven't read better books - only that no other book has inspired the same feelings of fondness and loyalty).

This so much. I love stories that make me feel this way. Other stories that have made me feel this way that I have liked are Bunnicula and the first LOTR book.