Once again thanks very much for your enlightening critique.
Saying "the town" is burdened to me seems a little pompous. I think you would be better served to illustrate your point. Such as: Soldiers teemed in the streets; their sheer volume ensuring the town was free of crime.
>You have a good point. The only problem is that at time of the day the soldiers are not in the streets. Most are engaged in morning exercises.
Your style in this opening paragraph is very dry. It would really speed up the flow and get a reader more engaged to reword it a little, show instead o f tell. I would also seperate the military from the introduction to the funhouses.
>I cannot do that; the town is a military cantonment; it had forts surrounding it.
Only way to effectively give an example of what I mean is to reword your sentences in my own style. The way I would have done it using your wordings mainly:
They had arrived two moons ago and imposed their strict military doctrine of hierarchy and order immediately.
>As I said above, it has a permanent military presense.
These effects were less apparent, in the quaint buildings, clustered on a back street behind the Wall-don’s offices. A few tousled patron’s were leaving, defying the new code of cleanliness and conformity, otherwise the funhouses were recovering from their night’s activity.
>Quite a good attempt, but the code is not new.
I found this paragraph contradictory, in that you say the soldiers are intermingling, yet by the end of the paragraph you express that there are established ranges of funhouses dependant upon a customers financial means.
>Why? The intermingling is b/w the Paladins ie staff officers vis other officers and other ranks. It all depends on the military ethos. In my world different ranks of the same unit ate, slept and fought together. Discipline was enforced by the acknowledgement that the Paladin was a superior sort of soldier, not just in rank but in actuality. Nothing bonds better in the military than knowing your leader can do things better than you. This translates into eagerness to obey his commands.
Sorry but a common soldier it would be more normal for him not to want to be among the officers and to gravitate to the cheaper establishes, as a soldiers in the lower ranks may not be the best.
>That is not neccesarily correct. Again, it all depends on the military ethos.In my military, the Paladin are embeded in the units and are akin to a German general staff officer of WW1 & WW2. The rank and file on the otherhand is akin to the field officer and ranks in the same army.
So I question is it natural and is the street so tiny that they'd intermingle among the houses as you first seem to suggest.
>Without going to far afield let me say, there are no officer-only brothels as was the case in the french army of WW1, or officers-only mess as in the British army etc--only coin is the distinguishing factor. The same as the Imperial society which the Legions spring from. It a society with centuries of peace, so the aquisition and possesion of coin is the major determinant in its society.
I love your writing Em, so don't take this harsh but you have a style that is very dry. You tend to describe things as though you aren't there, in an almost textbook or scientific manner.
>I promise I will not take your critisms harshly. I am trying to improve and and I dare say you have been a great help on that path.
It's very hard to relate to the experience at times. I think this could be fixed easily but I find at times I'm bogged down by your choice of structure. Example "In one specific building" sounds very pompous, why can't you simply state:
On the end of the block was a building much grander and outwardly significant then the others.
>Well because it is neither the most grand nor is it at the end of the block. The funhouse he visit's is close to the best but not the best. He starts from the bottom and (not in the scene but earlier in the chapter)work's his way up to this one, hench the 'enligthening' comment.
Whose telling us it is the norm. You keep doing an almost omni pov that is truly more then a little distracting.
>It is an omni POV that will translate the moment the scene arrives at Emburmak to his POV. You are right about dry style though. I usually do that when the POV is omni. I felt it differenciates from when I am in characther POV. I noticed a lot of other fantasy writers do so. I adopted it as well.
Could you spice it up a little, just tell us the streets are quiet as the girls recover.
>I will have another look and see.
Again my biggest problem is that you don't make this personal. You could do this easily in so many ways. Character direct POV. Descriptions that are less generic. I really do like what you are trying to get across just the method of you doing so is making it weary going.
Really beautiful description but I need it to be a little more personal still. Also I don't think I would consider it to appear dingy even in lackluster light.
>Have you been in such an establishment at night and then went there in daylight? The ones I have seen are dingy.
Everytime you start a sentence "in one" etc I'm groaning literally over here. Why the desire to keep the fact that this is emburmak (which btw you called burmak in the previous excerpts you gave me) a secret especially since this scene goes into his POV.
>I put the 'one early visitor' because I did not want people like you jumping on me if I just said Emburmak lay atop etc. You then ask how did he get there, does he live there etc. That is why after the build-up I said 'one early visitor'.
Go from description right to his POV, don't give us a description of his actions then goto his pov it doesn't flow well to do so. I'd rather you give us muttered obscenities and endearments then hear tell about them.
>Are you being serious? I cannot do that, this is not erotica.
I assume that by mentioning "enlightening experience" a reader automatically knows what is in Emburmaks mind.
>Yes. That is what I alluded to earlier. He started from the bottom and worked his way up.
If not by all means please feel free to delve more into his mind for me. I want a reason to justify his later actions more for me. So they are not seen as simply callous, but more complex. I know they are to a degree but I don't think you show that your character is aware they are.
>It would be impossible to do that in the space allowed. But briefly he is badly used by his first love and takes it out on women starting with comforters. He will embark on an emotional redemption that span's the whole story.
To skip ahead to further content.
I assume we are acquainted at this point with who or what Dalamis is? This might be a great point to do a small flashback and here how he met Derit personally in his explorations and a little about the town he was exploring. You could even expound upon Dalamis here.
>Yes in the MS prior to this, Dalamis appears in an earlier town and this one and is one of the few he will call friend. While you have interesting points it is not possible to follow. These, Kerit, funhouse, etc are all sub-plots and if I expanded on all of them my MS would balloon to over 700 pages. The funhouse scenes are there to show the effects of his earlier bad female experience.
In the interest of space-saving, I have had to do some backstories and 'telling' just to bring the MS within the target range of 400-500 pages. Even now I might have to cut down the climatic scene due to page overruns.
It already seems like you are leaning towards flashback and remembrance here anyways. Yes it will probably add to the length but I think it would be much more insightful and perhaps answer the reason why Em takes her for granted.
>This is all wrapped up in his ill use by Amanda. If I re-told it here wouldn't it be redundant? A major part of the MS deals with that major incident as it unfolds.
Not a very smooth transition from remembrance to the present. It is almost too simplified for the style you have been showing. Your descriptions alone tend toward the grandiose and elaborate. Then dialogue and interaction between characters seems very simple. I'd like to see some compromise between the two, so that they flow seemlessly together.
>Well this is a minor scene in a sub-plot. Derit in question is a peasent girl bought to become a comforter. Earlier in the MS a major characther will be placed in such an establishment, and the paucity of their education about things outside sex etc will be touched upon.
Simple question here when you are engaged in pleasure is this how you think, because you arent describing it from his pov. It doesn't seem realistic.
>When I was that age and at that level of sexual maturity, yes. Sorry to have to dissapoint you, but a lot of that scene is pulled from my actual experiences, as is his mind-set, road to emotional redemption etc.
Again you are not using his POV here.
He felt the perspiration run down his neck and his muscles and joints arched fiercely. <---That is his POV.
>I will have to dissagree with you on that one. It is his POV. He does not need explictly to feel the persperation for it to be his POV. He can unconsciously wipe his face because of the sweat. The last part of the 'offending' sentence clearly shows it is still his POV. As does the following one.
This is good insight into his mind, however it isn't worded quite right for me. It didn't feel strange HE did. Sorry rewording your phrases again: Hope you don't mind too much. I just don't know how else to word it to show you what I mean without giving a concrete example.
He felt strange, deep inside he had known this would be the last time he'd grace her chamber. No more would he unburden himself to her, she wasn't what he had truly wanted and the brief interlude had only been a respite to ease his heart of Amanda. He could see that clearly now, she wasn't what he needed and he'd used lust to try to rid himself of the past.
>A very good attempt, clrearly better than my own effort if we substitute your heart with 'hurt'.
In closure I'm going to state I disagree with the dialogue. You make us sympathize with her by making us think she does have some real feeling and was expecting to be treated as more then a paramour. If you want us to relate to Em you need to show that greed motivates it instead of real feeling. You try to state that Em believes her to be going through the motions yet her dialogue and her behavior scream the exact opposite.
>I do enjoy your insights but I have say it is sometimes saddled with the burden of you viewing a scene through a 'modern prism'. It is one of the reasons I used 'comforter' instead of 'whore' and 'funhouse' instead of 'brothel' etc. In the modern parlance in which you have fallen into, prostitutes are 'fallen' women, hard-boiled, drug-taking individuals who do it only for money and usually have nowhere to go except down.
In classical times as well as in some third world countries today, it is an avenue to better your lot. Families sold girls for financial gain or girls prostituted themselves for the betterment of the family.
Based on this, in my world, the girls in question were bought like Geisha and learnt the trade and either looked forward to one day becoming a madam or found ways to move on after paying what they owed. A girl might prostitute herself to save up for a dowry or save enough money to go into petty trading or get a wealthy benefactor. So having Derit dream about it not a bad thing.
Most are transient prostitutes--they do it for little while and move on, either through marriage etc. Strange as it may seem to you a lot of prostitutes in these societies married their customers or became mistresses. How else could they meet a man?
Or honestly we don't have to emphathize with Em but as others have pointed it out it would be nice to get something justifiable that though we may hate it we can correlate to. You did a nice job of him not realizing at first that he was using her build up on that and let him end it with a little more dignity and less confusion. It seemed he was well aware of what was going on finally too late, let him show some of that to her and give her a normal reaction of anger to being used,
>He is one who carries many demons, all outlined in the MS. This is just one of them. I think greater empathy would occur if all the MS is read. In a way I am happy that this is your reaction b/c Emburmak if we see just snnipets of his actions is not a nice person. Only when the whole picture is shown will it be seen as to why.
Let me drop a few bad ones. 1) He murders someone he has no interaction with. 2)He refuses to help a group of local women being raped inspite of having the means to do so. 3) He puts some colleagues in great peril simply b/c he wants to carry out orders and uses them as bait. 4) he kills an opponent in a blade-dance inspite of the official sign to the contrary for no apparent reason. Someone who can do all these, surely the feelings of an ill-educated comforter would not bother him in the least. Espercially if he feels he has a vendetta against all women.
While these are his faults, he does have redeeming features that will get better as the story moves on. For example he will intervene twice in muggings where he might have stood aside. His dislikes are manipulation and unfairness, espercially against the lowborn and will throw his weight against such.
As for what Derit says, we are seeing it from his POV, which might not be entirely accurate. She may be saying the truth but from his poisoned view it would be clear what he believes.
Saying "the town" is burdened to me seems a little pompous. I think you would be better served to illustrate your point. Such as: Soldiers teemed in the streets; their sheer volume ensuring the town was free of crime.
>You have a good point. The only problem is that at time of the day the soldiers are not in the streets. Most are engaged in morning exercises.
Your style in this opening paragraph is very dry. It would really speed up the flow and get a reader more engaged to reword it a little, show instead o f tell. I would also seperate the military from the introduction to the funhouses.
>I cannot do that; the town is a military cantonment; it had forts surrounding it.
Only way to effectively give an example of what I mean is to reword your sentences in my own style. The way I would have done it using your wordings mainly:
They had arrived two moons ago and imposed their strict military doctrine of hierarchy and order immediately.
>As I said above, it has a permanent military presense.
These effects were less apparent, in the quaint buildings, clustered on a back street behind the Wall-don’s offices. A few tousled patron’s were leaving, defying the new code of cleanliness and conformity, otherwise the funhouses were recovering from their night’s activity.
>Quite a good attempt, but the code is not new.
I found this paragraph contradictory, in that you say the soldiers are intermingling, yet by the end of the paragraph you express that there are established ranges of funhouses dependant upon a customers financial means.
>Why? The intermingling is b/w the Paladins ie staff officers vis other officers and other ranks. It all depends on the military ethos. In my world different ranks of the same unit ate, slept and fought together. Discipline was enforced by the acknowledgement that the Paladin was a superior sort of soldier, not just in rank but in actuality. Nothing bonds better in the military than knowing your leader can do things better than you. This translates into eagerness to obey his commands.
Sorry but a common soldier it would be more normal for him not to want to be among the officers and to gravitate to the cheaper establishes, as a soldiers in the lower ranks may not be the best.
>That is not neccesarily correct. Again, it all depends on the military ethos.In my military, the Paladin are embeded in the units and are akin to a German general staff officer of WW1 & WW2. The rank and file on the otherhand is akin to the field officer and ranks in the same army.
So I question is it natural and is the street so tiny that they'd intermingle among the houses as you first seem to suggest.
>Without going to far afield let me say, there are no officer-only brothels as was the case in the french army of WW1, or officers-only mess as in the British army etc--only coin is the distinguishing factor. The same as the Imperial society which the Legions spring from. It a society with centuries of peace, so the aquisition and possesion of coin is the major determinant in its society.
I love your writing Em, so don't take this harsh but you have a style that is very dry. You tend to describe things as though you aren't there, in an almost textbook or scientific manner.
>I promise I will not take your critisms harshly. I am trying to improve and and I dare say you have been a great help on that path.
It's very hard to relate to the experience at times. I think this could be fixed easily but I find at times I'm bogged down by your choice of structure. Example "In one specific building" sounds very pompous, why can't you simply state:
On the end of the block was a building much grander and outwardly significant then the others.
>Well because it is neither the most grand nor is it at the end of the block. The funhouse he visit's is close to the best but not the best. He starts from the bottom and (not in the scene but earlier in the chapter)work's his way up to this one, hench the 'enligthening' comment.
Whose telling us it is the norm. You keep doing an almost omni pov that is truly more then a little distracting.
>It is an omni POV that will translate the moment the scene arrives at Emburmak to his POV. You are right about dry style though. I usually do that when the POV is omni. I felt it differenciates from when I am in characther POV. I noticed a lot of other fantasy writers do so. I adopted it as well.
Could you spice it up a little, just tell us the streets are quiet as the girls recover.
>I will have another look and see.
Again my biggest problem is that you don't make this personal. You could do this easily in so many ways. Character direct POV. Descriptions that are less generic. I really do like what you are trying to get across just the method of you doing so is making it weary going.
Really beautiful description but I need it to be a little more personal still. Also I don't think I would consider it to appear dingy even in lackluster light.
>Have you been in such an establishment at night and then went there in daylight? The ones I have seen are dingy.
Everytime you start a sentence "in one" etc I'm groaning literally over here. Why the desire to keep the fact that this is emburmak (which btw you called burmak in the previous excerpts you gave me) a secret especially since this scene goes into his POV.
>I put the 'one early visitor' because I did not want people like you jumping on me if I just said Emburmak lay atop etc. You then ask how did he get there, does he live there etc. That is why after the build-up I said 'one early visitor'.
Go from description right to his POV, don't give us a description of his actions then goto his pov it doesn't flow well to do so. I'd rather you give us muttered obscenities and endearments then hear tell about them.
>Are you being serious? I cannot do that, this is not erotica.
I assume that by mentioning "enlightening experience" a reader automatically knows what is in Emburmaks mind.
>Yes. That is what I alluded to earlier. He started from the bottom and worked his way up.
If not by all means please feel free to delve more into his mind for me. I want a reason to justify his later actions more for me. So they are not seen as simply callous, but more complex. I know they are to a degree but I don't think you show that your character is aware they are.
>It would be impossible to do that in the space allowed. But briefly he is badly used by his first love and takes it out on women starting with comforters. He will embark on an emotional redemption that span's the whole story.
To skip ahead to further content.
I assume we are acquainted at this point with who or what Dalamis is? This might be a great point to do a small flashback and here how he met Derit personally in his explorations and a little about the town he was exploring. You could even expound upon Dalamis here.
>Yes in the MS prior to this, Dalamis appears in an earlier town and this one and is one of the few he will call friend. While you have interesting points it is not possible to follow. These, Kerit, funhouse, etc are all sub-plots and if I expanded on all of them my MS would balloon to over 700 pages. The funhouse scenes are there to show the effects of his earlier bad female experience.
In the interest of space-saving, I have had to do some backstories and 'telling' just to bring the MS within the target range of 400-500 pages. Even now I might have to cut down the climatic scene due to page overruns.
It already seems like you are leaning towards flashback and remembrance here anyways. Yes it will probably add to the length but I think it would be much more insightful and perhaps answer the reason why Em takes her for granted.
>This is all wrapped up in his ill use by Amanda. If I re-told it here wouldn't it be redundant? A major part of the MS deals with that major incident as it unfolds.
Not a very smooth transition from remembrance to the present. It is almost too simplified for the style you have been showing. Your descriptions alone tend toward the grandiose and elaborate. Then dialogue and interaction between characters seems very simple. I'd like to see some compromise between the two, so that they flow seemlessly together.
>Well this is a minor scene in a sub-plot. Derit in question is a peasent girl bought to become a comforter. Earlier in the MS a major characther will be placed in such an establishment, and the paucity of their education about things outside sex etc will be touched upon.
Simple question here when you are engaged in pleasure is this how you think, because you arent describing it from his pov. It doesn't seem realistic.
>When I was that age and at that level of sexual maturity, yes. Sorry to have to dissapoint you, but a lot of that scene is pulled from my actual experiences, as is his mind-set, road to emotional redemption etc.
Again you are not using his POV here.
He felt the perspiration run down his neck and his muscles and joints arched fiercely. <---That is his POV.
>I will have to dissagree with you on that one. It is his POV. He does not need explictly to feel the persperation for it to be his POV. He can unconsciously wipe his face because of the sweat. The last part of the 'offending' sentence clearly shows it is still his POV. As does the following one.
This is good insight into his mind, however it isn't worded quite right for me. It didn't feel strange HE did. Sorry rewording your phrases again: Hope you don't mind too much. I just don't know how else to word it to show you what I mean without giving a concrete example.
He felt strange, deep inside he had known this would be the last time he'd grace her chamber. No more would he unburden himself to her, she wasn't what he had truly wanted and the brief interlude had only been a respite to ease his heart of Amanda. He could see that clearly now, she wasn't what he needed and he'd used lust to try to rid himself of the past.
>A very good attempt, clrearly better than my own effort if we substitute your heart with 'hurt'.
In closure I'm going to state I disagree with the dialogue. You make us sympathize with her by making us think she does have some real feeling and was expecting to be treated as more then a paramour. If you want us to relate to Em you need to show that greed motivates it instead of real feeling. You try to state that Em believes her to be going through the motions yet her dialogue and her behavior scream the exact opposite.
>I do enjoy your insights but I have say it is sometimes saddled with the burden of you viewing a scene through a 'modern prism'. It is one of the reasons I used 'comforter' instead of 'whore' and 'funhouse' instead of 'brothel' etc. In the modern parlance in which you have fallen into, prostitutes are 'fallen' women, hard-boiled, drug-taking individuals who do it only for money and usually have nowhere to go except down.
In classical times as well as in some third world countries today, it is an avenue to better your lot. Families sold girls for financial gain or girls prostituted themselves for the betterment of the family.
Based on this, in my world, the girls in question were bought like Geisha and learnt the trade and either looked forward to one day becoming a madam or found ways to move on after paying what they owed. A girl might prostitute herself to save up for a dowry or save enough money to go into petty trading or get a wealthy benefactor. So having Derit dream about it not a bad thing.
Most are transient prostitutes--they do it for little while and move on, either through marriage etc. Strange as it may seem to you a lot of prostitutes in these societies married their customers or became mistresses. How else could they meet a man?
Or honestly we don't have to emphathize with Em but as others have pointed it out it would be nice to get something justifiable that though we may hate it we can correlate to. You did a nice job of him not realizing at first that he was using her build up on that and let him end it with a little more dignity and less confusion. It seemed he was well aware of what was going on finally too late, let him show some of that to her and give her a normal reaction of anger to being used,
>He is one who carries many demons, all outlined in the MS. This is just one of them. I think greater empathy would occur if all the MS is read. In a way I am happy that this is your reaction b/c Emburmak if we see just snnipets of his actions is not a nice person. Only when the whole picture is shown will it be seen as to why.
Let me drop a few bad ones. 1) He murders someone he has no interaction with. 2)He refuses to help a group of local women being raped inspite of having the means to do so. 3) He puts some colleagues in great peril simply b/c he wants to carry out orders and uses them as bait. 4) he kills an opponent in a blade-dance inspite of the official sign to the contrary for no apparent reason. Someone who can do all these, surely the feelings of an ill-educated comforter would not bother him in the least. Espercially if he feels he has a vendetta against all women.
While these are his faults, he does have redeeming features that will get better as the story moves on. For example he will intervene twice in muggings where he might have stood aside. His dislikes are manipulation and unfairness, espercially against the lowborn and will throw his weight against such.
As for what Derit says, we are seeing it from his POV, which might not be entirely accurate. She may be saying the truth but from his poisoned view it would be clear what he believes.
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