3.20: Crossroads, Part Two

[Carolyn Hill]

Two huge things I want to mention about this astounding episode.

First, Baltar:

Lee's testimony for Baltar spun my head. There I was, thinking Baltar really should be judged guilty, and Lee comes up with an argument on the stand that changed my mind. Yes, Baltar is guilty of heinous acts that the other characters know about, but almost everyone else is guilty of awful acts--and they've been officially pardoned by Roslin, so he should be, too. (I know at least one of the posters on the another thread predicted that the pardon would be applicable, but until Lee said what he said, I wasn't persuaded, emotionally.)

Baltar is still a snake. He's going to do more bad things. And some might argue that he should be executed to prevent him from doing those things. If Lee is right in saying that the remaining members of humanity are really just a "gang" instead of a civilization and that the rules are always being bent, one could make a case that they should make a new rule: kill Baltar or anyone, for that matter, before they commit the crime or atrocity you have reason to believe they will commit. But that would lead to further decline from a civilized state. Not the heroic thing to do. And Lee, despite his claim to be a coward, is a hero.

I wonder what's going to happen to Baltar. It seems as if he's being viewed as a miraculous healer (maybe having the King's Touch?) by some in the fleet. That may coincide with his possibly mystical destiny as the "father" of a Cylon child (with Six as the "mother"), which this episode reminded us of in a brief visual scene with Caprica Six, when he and she stood before a six pronged, lit structure, he holding a child, then turned to see the lit final five.

And second, the final five:

Now four of the five have been revealed for sure, and one other perhaps.

I'm astounded that Tyrol is one of them, because he's always seemed so extremely human--like an everyman. But I recall the episode in which Tyrol harms Calli in a violent fit and is counseled by one of the real Cylons, who diagnoses Tyrol as being afraid that he might be a Cylon. Ack! (Interesting to note that we now we have two Cylon-human hybrids, because he and Calli have a baby.)

That Tigh is one of the five blows me away. My god, to have killed his wife for having been a collaborator with the enemy, and then to discover he's a Cylon himself. Twisted! (I guess he's the final fiver that D'Anna apologized to when she was in the place between life and death. She would have been apologizing for imprisoning and torturing him on New Caprica when she didn't know he was one of the final five.)

Anders I am less freaked out about. Sure, he led the resistance, so there's emotional tension in him being a Cylon, but he's always getting knocked around by life--so here's another knock.

Roslin's assistant I have no reaction to, except to note, as she and Tigh both seem to have noted, that she and Tigh are the right-hand helpers to the two most powerful people in the fleet. Probably not a coincidence!

And then there's Starbuck. Is she the fifth? She's back. But is she real, in the flesh, or in Lee's head? If she's in the flesh, does that make her a Cylon for having survived death? In any case, she's fulfilling her destiny, doing what I thought she would: returning with knowledge, just like people in folklore do when they journey to the underworld of death and return with magical power.

So . . . what did you think of this season finale?

 

[Urien]

I enjoyed it. I though Lee was very convincing on the stand. I would kill Baltar on the quiet, make him disappear.

The use of the lyrics was surprising. That'll be hard to square.

The last two episodes were (at last) revving up again, I think the cylon reappearance had a lot to do with that. The Starbuck reappearance, well not a huge shock.

Unfortunately I don't think the last episode was enough whiz bang to make up for the five or six preceding "stationary bike" episodes. Now it's not back until 2008, I don't think they built enough momentum to carry a big audience through.

 

[Whitestar]

Well, this episode was awesome! I just wished all the episodes of this season matched the high quality of writing in this one because the third season has been a bit unsteady, much like in season 2. Okay, on to this episode. The verdict of Baltar was somewhat of a predictable turn of events, but it was definitely worth watching, particularly Lee's testimony which was the highlight of this episode. He raised some very good points about everyone in the fleet being guilty of something. However, unlike Lee, I don't think the Colonial Fleet is a gang, nor do I think they are guilty of the acts they've committed. They were ordinary people under extaordinary circumstances that wouldn't have occurred elsewhere. They made drastic and tough decisions because they were placed in impossible and unthinkable situations that ultimately benefitted the Colonial Fleet.

For instance, in the mini-series President Roslyn ordered the fleet to Jump and leave behind ships that were not equip with jump engines because it would have meant the death of so many more victims had she not given the order. And she also gave the order to have Lee and Kara shoot down the Olympic Carrier because it was armed with nukes and was about to destroy the Galactica and the fleet. When Bill Adama ordered a coup d 'etat against President Roslyn, he did so because he felt that her motives and ambitions (although good intentioned) threatened the entire fleet. And then Lee put a gun to Tigh's head, in which Tigh was leading the coup in defense of the Roslyn administration because he felt that their way of government was threatening democracy and on the brink of turning into a police state.

And speaking of Lee, when he was commander of the Pegasus he arm-twisted his father in abandoning their people who have settled on New Caprica because they didn't have the necessary weapons and supplies to protect them. Bill Adama was well aware of this and reluctantly agreed to Lee's suggestion, but also carried the hope and possibility of eventually returning to rescue them once they were prepared to do so. Galen and Karl killed an officer of the Pegasus because that officer was about to rape (and possibly kill) Sharon, who was very instrumental in helping and saving the fleet several times. Tigh had sucide bombers taking out Cylons along with humans because he felt it was one of a few limited ways to fight back the toasters. The analogy could be compared to destroying a cancerous site and taking some healthy tissue with it because it was for a good cause.

As for Baltar, I really do think that he is more of a victim than villain, but he's also an amoral individual which makes him extremely dangerous. He never intentionally wanted the destruction of the 12 colonies to happen and after surviving the destruction of Caprica, he could have come forward to Adama and Roslyn about it and would have probably been seen in a different light from the people, the problem is he is too much of coward to do that. What bothers a little bit about Baltar is that the writers are attempting to make him seem like Jesus Christ, when in fact, he's just the opposite of Chirst. Baltar is egotisical, arrogant, manipulative, self-preservationist, and selfish. I don't see the connection of why the writers are comparing him to Christ with the exception that he's public enemy number one, persecuted until he dies.

The revelation of the four of the five cylon models was shocking (even though I read the spoilers beforehand) but I find it ironic that Tigh, Tyrol, Tory and Anders are cylons considering that they were the leaders of the resistance back on New Caprica. I particularly feel sorry for Tigh and Anders because they are what they always sought out to destroy and they probably hate themselves now more than ever. As for Tyrol, I think its neat that he's a cylon because he's quite good with working and fixing machines, so there's symmetry there. But even after watching this episode, I still question if Tigh, Tyrol, Tory, and Anders are cylons. Just because they can hear that Bob Dylan song does not confirm that they're cylons.

Also, it is not clear if other crew members can or can't hear it. For instance, take that scene where Anders is in the hangar bay with Seelix. When he starts hearing that song again, he asks Seelix if she's hearing it too but her response is kind of vague because she doesn't actually acknowledge it and shrugs it off. In fact, I have a theory on why Tigh, Tyrol, Tory, and Anders are not cylons. The final shot where we see Earth suggests that this is where the Bob Dylan song is coming from via radio wave that was sent many, many years ago. I mean, where else could that song be coming from? I will admit that once I heard that song in fully, I rolled my eyes around and wondered if the show "jumped the shark", but I'm willing to go with my theory that the Bob Dylan song is coming from Earth, traveling as a radio wave which makes perfect sense. This is why I'm not entirely convinced that Tigh, Tyrol, Tory, and Anders are not cylons. In addition, based on the Bob Dylan song, its logical to suggest that the timeline of Earth is at least in our era or beyond.

Now in regards to Kara's return, yes, I do think she's a cylon and here's why. Her last words to Lee was, "They're waiting for me", hinting that her fellow cylon family were waiting for to be reborn on the basestar in that container of goo. So, she "died" and was resurrected on a basestar that was most probably in Earth's orbit while her cylon family takes the liberty of building her a new viper. Eventually, she suits up and flys away from the basestar in Earth's orbit and joins up with a shocked Lee, appearing more at peace with herself and happier than we've ever seen her. She reassures him that its really her and that would explain why she said to Lee that she's been to Earth and knows its location.

The theme of this episode is about uncertainty and confusion, not just for the characters but for us too. The writers left us with many unanswered questions. Are Tigh, Tyrol, Tory, and Anders really cylons, or are the writers making them (and us) believe that they are? Is Kara really dead or alive? Was Lee actuallly hallucinating about Kara flying beside him? Maybe she was a figment of his imagination? After all, both pilots were tired and overworked, so its possible that this is the case. Or maybe Kara implanted a chip in Lee's brain when he was sleeping (like Six did to Baltar in the mini-series) prior to her "death". We will have to wait until January 2008 for the answers. In the meantime, I look forward to the upcoming DVD movie.

 

[judge_mel]

I do agree this episode, and the two others preceeding to build it up were expertly written, preformed and directed. But clearly they were meant as set pieces in the misdirection that Moore's Battlestar Galactica is all about. We the audience (as well as the characters) are continued to be lead by the nose and the job is being done so well, that it takes some relection to see it.

The trial, pretty as it was, was a sham, a 'pantomime' as Baltar called it, from both a perspective of the players as well as me the viewer (the levels of metastory being constucted within the narrative grow deeper and deeper). The prosecution did practically nothing by offer nasty thoughts and purjured testimony in it's case. There was plenty of tacts they could have taken; the Cylon Detector situation, with not detecting Boomer, but detecting a difference in cylon blood with Hera, the disappearing nuke and the blown up ship. Not to mention the retalitionship between Baltar and the sixes. Does no one remember the six that accused him of being a traitor in front of everybody a couple years ago?

What do we get for the defense? Even less. Lampkin bring up complaints of mob lynching and ultimately, Lee using the Chewbacca defense. And proud Adama acquiting Baltar partly on the fact that his son didn't embarass him on the stand. Go on, tell me that you didn't see that too.

It took a masterful hand to deal out all that, and still make it smell sweet.

Bob Dylan in Battlestar. Despite all the mental gymnastics going on amongst other commenters, that for me just threw me right out of the story everytime it came up. The only logical reason for using 'All Along the Watchtower' is that the writers think it's cool to put it in, not that it makes any sense at all in the construction of the storyline. Not only did the characters repeating the dialog make much sense, the only possible source of the rhyme and music in the characters heads is of course the unseen hand which has been guiding everyone along since the beginning, it appears now both Cylon and Colonial are victims of the intergalactic master manipulators.

The question remains, are the forces manipulating them the final five, the cylon god, some other interested party. Or the writers, not content in simply writing a good story, but informing us that a story is being written.

But of course they are. That's been 'the plan', all along.

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

I just want to say Im not absolutely certain that the 4 are neccessarily Cylons. I dont know any other explanation myself, but it wouldnt be "beyond the pale" that theyre some sort of prophets or whatnot. I dont know, why would a Bob Dylan song reveal them to be Cylons? Is it me or is that not the best way to program a sleeper agent? Im not sold we've met 4 of the final 5

 

[Milk]

I just want to say Im not absolutely certain that the 4 are neccessarily Cylons. I dont know any other explanation myself, but it wouldnt be "beyond the pale" that theyre some sort of prophets or whatnot. I dont know, why would a Bob Dylan song reveal them to be Cylons? Is it me or is that not the best way to program a sleeper agent? Im not sold we've met 4 of the final 5

Eh.. the Bob Dylan song being where it doesnt belong is identicle to how Stephen King ran plot devices in The Dark Tower Series.

If Stephen King were writing the BSG scripts he probably add some background detail like "All along the Watchtower " is a Universal song.. Not from Earth neccesarily. Since its a song that exists throughout all Universe's, obviously its a great trigger ..Just a song that springs up wherever there are humans to write it down and sing it. Dumb? Yes! Im just saying its very Stephen King. He did this with "Hey Jude".

I am a Stephen King fan so don't accuse me of railing him. Its just that when I see these types of inconstencies they dont bug me because I enjoyed a series of books that had one of these every page or so.

At the very least:

This isnt a TV series about the real world. It's about the Galactica Universe. Perhaps in the Galactica Universe the song "All along the Watchtower's' was written on one the colonies and there is no Bob Dylan on Galactica's 'Earth'.

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

Maybe you missed my point...

To me that scene looked like four people were drawn to a time and place not of their own choosing by a siren call of some sort. Not knowing any better they explain it the only way they know how. Is there anything concrete you can point at that says Chief was right?

It just looks to me like they were flailing around for an answer and hit on the most immediate one. Ive been wrong before (and I might add Ive been right) and Im okay with being wrong here....just keep an open mind.

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

Ahh nevermind, I just read an interview with RDM where he stated with no attempt at disembling that those were 4 of the final 5. He did not say anything about Starbuck. So anyhow there goes my former working theory....


Tuned In - A Post-Gazette Journal

 

[ScottSF]

The show clearly wants us to think that these are the final 5 starbuck being the 5th but there's always room for twists. Not surprised about Tigh at all. Well I didn't know he was a cylon but he sure as heck never seemed human; more like a bizare Canadian muppet.

One strange creative thought. What if the eye of jupiter really was a reference to the great red spot on the planet jupiter in earth's solar system. Like at the center of the storm Starbuck flew into actually went in a portal that came out in the planetary storm on jupiter. Maybe the portals even caused the storms.

I wonder if there was a reason the President felt sick right before the power failure on the ships.

 

[Connavar]

Baltar is a massmurderer and needs to put down but the thing is its almost impossible to prove him quilty. I mean only Roslin saw him with six in caprica etc


Adama was right the prosecutor didnt make her case. Baltar isnt innocent, he is just not quilty in that specific trial. If the prosecutor had saved a emotional speech about all the people that have died cause of Baltar as her ace, he would be in jail now.

He is a fricking worm that will get whats coming to him.

 

[Delvo]

What if the eye of jupiter really was a reference to the great red spot on the planet jupiter in earth's solar system

Actually, Jupiter's "spot" has been called the Great Red Eye long before this show anyway. That's even the first name I knew it by, so "spot" always sounds wrong.

But if the idea is that gas-giant storms can contain portals, there's a problem (other than the lack of a physically realistic cause for the portals) due to the fact that they're not permanent. Like any storm, they begin and they end. Jupiter's big one is fading and will be gone in another century or two (while another on Jupiter has built up quite a bit in just the last decade or two--maybe you figure the portal could jump from one to the next?).

And remember, the whole fleet hid in a swirling hole in a gas giant's atmosphere at Ragnar Station in the pilot mini-series...

 

[ScottSF]

It's funny, I was so used to hearing them make reference to Roman gods that I didn't even think of Jupiter the planet in the eye of Jupiter reference. I know sci-fi shows care about actual science in varying degrees. I just had the thought that maybe with starbuck's story line, the storms may have had an artificial cause i.e. something disrupting the atmosphere.

Another surprise is that Starbuck showed up in her Viper. I figured she was a cylon (not sure about anything of course) but would the cylons go to all the trouble to re-create a viper? I'm also thinking in the end there may be some time travel component to account for all the prophecys; maybe somebody goes back in time and writes a bunch of this stuff down.

another thought: Maybe Starbuck is appearing to Apollo the same way The cylone woman appears to baltar and vice versa, that whole business needs to be explained at some point. I'll look forward to learning how it all gets worked out.

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

One of the things RDM mentioned in that interview I posted earlier was the possibility that the End scene Starbuck was actually in Lees head...I love that thought. I think Lee has gone crazy enough to merit one.

One of the source material ideas that Ive seen on the internet in various interviews is that all that is happening has happened before, that this particular rag tag fugitive fleet is just the latest exodus by humans to earth while being chased by cylons.

I think the power outage as they jumped in was caused by whatever Starbuck used to journey to them....thats just a thought.

And get used to those 4 at least being part of the final 5. There were three questions that asked directly or indirectly if those were Cylons and RDM answered unequivocally yes each time. He does say that the final 5 are fundamentally different than the Cylons we've seen so far.

The trial was farce on both sides. I dont even know where to begin so I wont.....but....Conn is right, the prosecution dropped the ball on the trial...but Baltar is guilty of many things but I dont know how much we can blame him for Caprica. He committed Industrial Espionage, violated whatever oath he gave to get a security clearance and has withheld evidence but all that pales in comparison to handing a nuclear weapon over to a known terrorist like he did just before landing on New Caprica. Heck I even think he performed relatively well as president on New Caprica once the Cylons showed (lets not forget he was horribly indolent before they landed). Oh well....hope the next season is less "omg Lee and Kara made sweet love" and more "cylons attack with lasers pew pew".

 

[Carolyn Hill]

One strange creative thought. What if the eye of jupiter really was a reference to the great red spot on the planet jupiter in earth's solar system. Like at the center of the storm Starbuck flew into actually went in a portal that came out in the planetary storm on jupiter. Maybe the portals even caused the storms.

Cool idea, Scott!

(For some reason, as I read your idea, I got a quick mental image of Tigh's missing eye. I know there's no connection between Tigh's eye and the Eye of Jupiter, but my brain wants there to be.)

I wonder if there was a reason the President felt sick right before the power failure on the ships.

Maybe she reacted because she has Cylon blood in her from Baltar curing (temporarily) her cancer? Laura, Sharon, Caprica Six, and Sharon's baby are all linked, sharing that single dream . . . sort of like four of the Final Five are linked, sharing that song in their head. And I got the impression that the power failure is linked to the Cylons.

 

[ScottSF]

I completely forgot about the cylon blood in Roslyn, thanks!

 

[Huttman]

Hey all - I just wanted to add a few thoughts about the final five, or four rather, that we supposedly know about. First off, if all four characters really are cylons, I have to say that Colonel Tighe being one bums me out, the first time since the shows (re)creation. He has been one of my favorite characters in the show because he is one of the most flawed but always, eventually seems to recover or make good. A point here, if he has fought in several, including the first cylon/human war, when excactly did the chrome toasters start making flesh and bone units? He should be in his 50's or maybe early 60's shouldn't he? Sam and Tori (Roslin's assistant) I don't have any feelings one way or the other, but Chief Tyrol being one does not set very well with me either.

O.K. Now the justification in my mind if they all really are cylons. First, they are all unique, meaning there are not multiple copies of them anywhere, which might make them feel better (I know it would me). Second, if the chrome jobs started tampering with human DNA very early on, perhaps they created these 4 or 5 final ones first until they improved designs to mass produce the others. (Six did say they don't speak of them). So possibly our final cylons here might be part human. It might also have been the reason the cylons are self aware. The original mechanical versions in using human DNA might only have been doing so from a strictly logical point of view. Hey - in the end it is just science fiction, things and ideas taken from our world and headlines, hopes, fears and ambitions and put into what I have always thought is a very cool medium to tell stories - outer space. Looking forward to this story continuing...

 

[ScottSF]

I like the idea of them being unique. The interview did say that these 5 are fundamentally different. That raises the question about Starbuck though because she died and came back; or at least that's what we are led to believe. If her and her ship survived then what's the deal with the wreckage that Apollo saw? I don't understand why people keep saying we only know about 4 when the information in the show was clearly pointing to Starbuck ans #5. But there's still the unanswer question about Baltar and his smart halucinations. If all the the cylons are accounted for, there are still questions about people that know a bit more than the average person or have some connection to the cylons. I wonder why the show veered away from the prophecy stuff. I mean prophecys used to seem very specific to what was going on but they don't seem to be saying much about it recently.

 

[Huttman]

Thinking back to when Starbuck's viper explodes, I recall she had her hand on the eject lever but Apollo or the audience never saw her eject from the ship unless there was a chance with the "clouds" or ship disintegration one could not see that happening for a dramatic sense. If she was a goner and is indeed a cylon, and also if she literally was there flying a Mark II talking with Apollo, then I'm quite sure if the cylons had a captured Rature, then a Viper would also be a good possibility. Kara did have the flashback episode with her mother, but her Mom did seem to treat her really badly most of the time like she knew something about her but could not share. I do remember her telling her daughter about her special destiny. We will find out, if not soon enough.

Yes, Baltar's invisible Six and Six's invisible Baltar are still a great entertaining mystery to this show, and I do hope they go back to the prophecy I know whats going on thing soon, too. Personally I would also like them to re-visit the one God vs. multiple gods thing...

 

[Connavar]

One of the things RDM mentioned in that interview I posted earlier was the possibility that the End scene Starbuck was actually in Lees head...I love that thought. I think Lee has gone crazy enough to merit one.

One of the source material ideas that Ive seen on the internet in various interviews is that all that is happening has happened before, that this particular rag tag fugitive fleet is just the latest exodus by humans to earth while being chased by cylons.

I think the power outage as they jumped in was caused by whatever Starbuck used to journey to them....thats just a thought.

And get used to those 4 at least being part of the final 5. There were three questions that asked directly or indirectly if those were Cylons and RDM answered unequivocally yes each time. He does say that the final 5 are fundamentally different than the Cylons we've seen so far.

The trial was farce on both sides. I dont even know where to begin so I wont.....but....Conn is right, the prosecution dropped the ball on the trial...but Baltar is guilty of many things but I dont know how much we can blame him for Caprica. He committed Industrial Espionage, violated whatever oath he gave to get a security clearance and has withheld evidence but all that pales in comparison to handing a nuclear weapon over to a known terrorist like he did just before landing on New Caprica. Heck I even think he performed relatively well as president on New Caprica once the Cylons showed (lets not forget he was horribly indolent before they landed). Oh well....hope the next season is less "omg Lee and Kara made sweet love" and more "cylons attack with lasers pew pew".

Man i cant agree more about less "omg Lee and Kara made sweet love" !!


Yeah Baltar giving away the nuke and the fact that he cover for Sharon when he saw she was a cylon cause of the machine that tested people if they were cylons or not.

Just two of many of the crimes he has done. That would put another person in death row. He is a weasel that was protected by people ignorance of him before he became pres and the enemy of all.

 

[Delvo]

Maybe Starbuck's return means it's always been possible for the humans to resurrect, and they just didn't know it because they were too far away from the resurrection place until now. And that could even have been a deliberate choice their ancestors made, to avoid resurrecting...