On Creating Imaginary Worlds: Science Fiction

[J-WO]

So the sort of thing that would get built after the first (couple) of colonizing waves? 'Canyon City' as it were, perhaps the 'Las Vegas of the Red planet'.

Thanks, Chrispenycate, you've got my notion hamster running in its wheel...

 

[Pentagathus]

The story I'm planning isn't actualy science fiction, but it seems like this would be the better thread for this question.
I want to have a city, Roman styled with most of the architecture intact (or as much as possible) but "lost" in some way. I got the idea from studying Pompeii. However, I don't see how my pompeii would be found in my setting (medievalish time) after being buried by a volcanoe. So the question is how could I do this? I'm thinking that I place it in what is "now" a drowned valley/lake close to the sea. The idea would be that with melting ice caps the sea levels rose and came over into the valley, drowning the city and it's surroundings. However, if the valley was only reached from the sea by a narrow point, and this neck was blocked for long enough to protect most of the city from erosion untill the sea levels fall again and the city is found nice and safe. Could this work? And if it did, and the area was drained, how fertile would the surrounding land be? I know that seaweed is used as a ferteliser and mineral salts are used by plants for growth, but I think I've been told that sea water makes land infertile.
Cheers for reading all that.

 

[chrispenycate]

Easier would be to have an earthquake dam off a river valley (natural place for building a city) and the entire valley fill with water (and sludge) until it's deep enough to be a lake, and the water starts flowing from a higher point. A bit of vulcanism in the depths (perhaps the original city had natural hot springs) would would reduce the oxygen content in the deep water, and slow decomposition.

Then what? Seismic activity in southern Italy is not uncommon (African and Eurasian plates interacting) so it could be another quake that broke the obstruction and put the river back to its original level, or irrigation upstream making the level drop year on year; at any rate, it can't be too fast, or the flow of water would damage the buildings; it must take at least several months.

There. River silt is known for its fertility, and no problem of leaching the salt from the soil.

The trouble is that if it were Roman, there would be records of it (the romans were great ones for records) The fleeing citizens (who would have had time to flee; a tidal wave of water, rather than a gradual influx, would cause the same destruction as a rapid release) would have taken their valuables and their books, and written evidence would almost certainly have come down to today. Pompeii, with its combination of poison gas and ash, preserved lots of objects that would have been carried off if the inhabitants had had more time to realise what was happening; I can't see flooding in any form being able to do that, without fairly massive destruction (which we're trying to avoid).

 

[J-WO]

Instead of a flood, how about something more akin to the Mayans (Which, to be honest, I don't know that much about)? Much of their stuff remains intact. I think it had something to do with the collapse of agriculture and soil erosion. There's some evidence (or at least a theory) for a violent 'anti-city', anti-priesthood segment of the populous during the last days, too, perhaps renouncing civic life and demanding a return to an earlier existence. They (and your 'Pompeians') might have come to see the cities as cursed in someway, thus ensuring they and their descendents never touched the ruins due to taboo. And an 'anti-city' ethic would mean survivors would eschew things like keeping records.

Also, a number of ancient near eastern cities ceased fairly rapidly due to drought. How long can people go without water? More specifically, how long can people go without water before they decide to go somewhere else?
In essence, cities are useful when vast numbers of others are a bonus to the individual and his/her dependents. Alter that equation in whatever way and you get a lot of empty buildings.

 

[Pentagathus]

Hmm, I could just let the city take a large amount of damage, after all there were still plenty of people who new about engineering in medieval times, just not enough money spent on public works such as sewer and aqueduct networks. However that does still raise the problem of where the manpower and the money would come from.
Chris, I'm not too worried about the possesions of the people but rather of the architecture itself. And perhaps if this city was lost in a time of great climate change, with rising sea levels and other areas being drowned or destroyed then perhaps this would be overlooked? And J-WO, perhaps climate change could lead to the area's desertion but the problem then is why wouldn't people move back as soon as the problems of the climate change went away? I suppose something like a thick coverage of forest, in addition to the area being arround dangerous mountains could do it.
Thanks to both of you, I'll have a think about it and try and come up with some more ideas. I may have to simply change what I plan to do with the city (mabye my characters could just loot it or find something interesting there) since this story is still in it's early stages.

 

[J-WO]

perhaps climate change could lead to the area's desertion but the problem then is why wouldn't people move back as soon as the problems of the climate change went away? I suppose something like a thick coverage of forest, in addition to the area being arround dangerous mountains could do it.

One reason the people might not return could be a change in the nature of the 2nd civilisation. Your 'Pompeii' could have been an inland-based culture, mainly concerned with farming etc and quite insular in its outlook (Like Sparta). After the disaster (whether climate based or whatever) the survivors might have moved miles away to the coastline and become more outward looking types (Like Athens) getting most of their requirements through trade. After a few centuries they would feel no need to return inland, especially since forests had grown and theres all them bloomin' mountains in the way anyhow.

This phenomena can play out equally well in reverse, should you wish 'PentagaPompeii' to have been an explorer/maritime-style city.

Athens and Sparta are good examples of this sort of thing. At heart they shared the same culture, but their geographical set ups ensured they went off in two wildly different paths.

Good luck with your creation!

 

[Pentagathus]

Yes, real Pompeii is now much further from the sea than it was at the time of it's destruction, so a retreating ocean could work as well as a different outlook. If there was a forest it could be viewed with fear and superstition, giving people less reason to return.

 

[J-WO]

Yes, real Pompeii is now much further from the sea than it was at the time of it's destruction, so a retreating ocean could work as well as a different outlook.

This is also true in the case of Troy, too. In fact nine Troys were built upon the same hill over a long period of time. It stopped being a popular site for a city as the sea got further away (or so the evidence suggests).

 

[J-WO]

An idea just popped up in my head that fascinates me but that I don't have the knowledge to properly comprehend. In effect-

What if you could take technology like those jump gates in Babylon 5 or those stargates in, er, Stargate and miniaturize them to a scale usable inside a computer? Information between all the processors/'thinky bits' wouldn't have to travel via physical connections then. It would merely 'jump' to whatever part of the machine it would be going to.
I presume this would create a computer that processed information faster than the speed of light. Am I right? And if so, what would be the result for the user? Would he/she receive answers to questions before they were even typed in? Surely that's impossible?
Or is this a patently daft idea and I'm missing something obvious?
As I mentioned, I'm not very knowledgeable in this area. Even if someone could point me in the right direction for reading matter i'd be awfully grateful!

 

[Karn Maeshalanadae]

It's actually very hard to say....

I believe that this would be impossible to do because first off, imagine the data that would have to be stored. And to place that into a portable computer, I doubt that anyone could get a hard drive necessary for it that small.

Also, there's the effect of ripping through spacetime to create a jump portal whenever you want. The closest this came to, J, would have been the show Sliders, but they had no control over when or where they could "slide" to.


Why do you think that even on those shows they had to have large, stationary gates?

 

[chrispenycate]

An interesting use for quantum entanglement, but not one that is likely to bring about time travel.

One problem is that you are using the word "faster" in two different senses; calculation speed is not the same thing as transmission speed, despite using the same word. It would become possible to build a very big computer, with no cooling problems, possibly not all of it on the planet, but would not decrease the latency of semiconductor switches, so calculation speeds would not improve much.

But, if the word "instantaneous" has some meaning, there is a flaw in the theory of relativity. Not over surprising; theories tend to contain them, as they are created by limited human minds, and Einstein hit closer to "reality" than anybody else for quite a while. But if simultaneity can exist it is possible to define a universal frame, and relativity is based round the premise this can't be done. "Time travel" this way assumes information is limited by the speed of light; if this is not the case, the theory falls apart.

The book to read about computers that receive E-mails before they are sent is Gregory Benford's "Timescape"; I don't think the idea has been done better. Indeed, information, as massless and energy free is the thing we are most likely to be able to send through time, far more so than historians or recording cameras.

 

[J-WO]

Manarion- interesting point about data storage. One answer might be that the data could be stored on a vast computer somewhere and all the portable computers would merely be terminals; each would have a micro-jump gate inside them with a direct link to the giant computer.

Chispenycate- Ok, so no time travel (which, to be honest, is a blessed relief- nothing so hard to write as time travel), but I'm absolutely blown away by your suggestion of a computer with parts spread out between planets and connected via 'micro-gates'. Its the sort of thing that would make a stellar Empire truly cohesive (especially since we might presuppose they had jump-capable ships, too). Or would good ol' relativity squash this notion?

And whats meant by a 'universal frame'?

 

[Karn Maeshalanadae]

On an episode of The Universe on the history channel last night, J, they said that the data needed for one person-ONE PERSON, not an entire landscape-would have to be stored, AT THIS DAY AND AGE, in a hard drive that would fill five Empire State Buildings.

Not to mention there's all other kinds of complications, such as what the pathway between the portals would be like. It wouldn't just be like stepping through a door from one room of your house to another.

 

[J-WO]

Wow, that's quite a lot of hard drive and no mistake. But the sheer power of computers is rising exponentially 24-7. Surely by the time humanity has jump gate tech (and lets call that a big if, of course) the hard drive required to store all their date would be the size of a 'I've been to the Empire State Building' souvenir paperweight?

As for the other complications, well I guess they wouldn't be on all the time. The microgates would activate when needed. What the pathways would be like is anyone's guess. They might not exist at all- just one side of the gate meeting the other.

 

[Karn Maeshalanadae]

That was dealing with Star Trek style transporters at the time and they said such technology in a believable sized hard drive to store a person's data would probably be available in 200-300 years at the rate technology is growing.


But still there's more complications than just storage.....

 

[J-WO]

No, sorry if I've given the wrong impression, M. People aren't going through these microgates, whether in data form or whatever. Just computer information.

 

[MattyK]

Odd question for you all (or whoever is feeling sciency today!). How big would the sun look from one of Saturn's moons compared to how we see it here on Earth? I'm guessing it wouldn't be a pin-prick sort of thing but I don't have a clue really. Any thoughts?

 

[HareBrain]

Well, logic suggests that since Saturn is ten times the distance from the sun that the Earth is, the sun will look one tenth the diameter - so something like a 2mm dot held at arm's length.

 

[ktabic]

Yes, that would be about right, HareBrain. It would be the brightest star in the sky, but not much bigger than any other star.

 

[J-WO]

Would any of the neighboring gas giants (Jupiter etc) look moon-sized from Saturn's perspective?