The Conclusion of the Song:Inevitable Disappointment?

[YOSSARIAN]

As I finished yet another rereading of the story thus far, I suddenly began to feel that there is no possible ending to the saga that would be satisfying. Not because of any shortcomings of Martin's abilities; in fact the high quality of the series so far makes me wonder if any conclusion would be as exciting as the saga leading to the climax. The ambiguous ending to The Sopranos is an example of what I am trying to say. If you were a fan of that series, it was difficult be satisfied with the ambiguity of the final scene which brought no closure to the rather epic and engrossing tale of Tony Soprano's life. Yet I can't think of any ending that would have any better, given the scope of the story and the astonishing artistry that brought that story to life. Given the long time emotional and intellectual investment most of us have had in this series to date, what events have to take place for you to feel the investment was worthwhile? What kind of ending would be a big disappointment? (I know everyone would be disappointed if Martin created a poorly written or implausible ending so let's just assume that won't happen.)

If I may start out with a few things I feel HAVE to happen to keep me from getting angry: the revelation of Jon's parentage as more than Ned Stark's *******; Dany's glorious (even if not victorious) return to Westeros; something GOOD happening for Tyrion; the complete opposite for his damn sister; true redemption for Jaime; some kind of triumph for our Stark children; and also some insight into the motives of Varys, Littlefinger, and the Faceless Men and the Citadel. And some other stuff too.

 

[Florian the Fool]

As far as I can see, the only thing that has to happen is the final defeat of The Others.

There are many things I would like to see happen, most of which you've already mentioned, but GRRM is too wily to provide all the happy endings we would like to see. He's also quite aware that history has no end-point, and there are always loose ends that are never quite tied up. We like to think of history as consisting of the Tudors, followed by the Stuarts, followed by the Hanoverians, and so on, but the end of one epoch does not necessarily tie in neatly with the beginning of another. I anticipate that a number of plots will be left dangling, but I expect the period of Westerosi history that the author is concerning himself with in this series will conclude with the defeat of the threat from the North, just as it began with their re-appearence in the prologue of GOT.

As long as that plot thread is resolved, I won't be disappointed (apart from the inevitable disappointment that follows from finishing a really good story and knowing that you can never read it for the first time again)

 

[that old guy]

I can't imagine ever being as disappointed by Martin as I was with how King ended the DT books.

 

[TK-421]

I guess the only satisfying ending to The Sopranos (to use your example Yoss) would have been Tony blowing his brains out or something like that. But don't quote me because I never watched more that 10 minutes of the show. Something about beating hookers to death that did not appeal to me and make me say to myself "yeah, I want to watch this picnic every week".

Anyways, GRRM has said himself that the end of ASoIF will be "bittersweet" and left it at that.

 

[Winters_Sorrow]

I agree that the Others have to be defeated (although perhaps not for ever) and Dany has to return.
All other elements are up in the air for me. Jaime is just as much a prime candidate to die as he is to be 'redeemed' as it were. The Starks will not come out of this in a happy way either IMO. Their home is destroyed, 2 of their major vassals (Bolton & Karstark) will either be destroyed as well or forever hate them and most of their other vassals have lost their heirs or in some cases, been wiped out themselves. God help them when/if the wall falls.
As for the Lannisters, they're already finding out that holding power is harder than gaining it. Actually, as things stand, I'm finding it hard to find the "sweet" part of GRRM's "bittersweet" ending!

 

[TK-421]

The 'sweet' could be:

-a ******* sitting on the Iron Throne (or standing beside it if Dany gets to sit in it),
-Arya getting revenge and finishing off her list,
-Sansa coming into her own and being a major player after learning the ropes from Littlefinger,
-the Martells getting revenge,
-Bran leading the rebirth of the North,
-Asha getting to lead her people,
-Tyrion getting revenge,
-Jaime dying (although unfortunate because he is one of my favourites),
-Cersei dying,
-Davos being able to go home,
-Stannis dying,
-Dany being able to control her dragons
-etc.

 

[Boaz]

The most likely reason that readers may consider the ending dissapointing is that GRRM set his own bar so high at the beginning. His characters, his world, and his story have gripped us from the start. To see them end will be sad to some degree because we've each internalized (empathized, found common ground) an aspect of one character, perhaps more. The resolution (or non-resolution) of that aspect of that one character may not be what we wanted... and thus the conclusion of the entire series may not feel satisfying.

I also wonder if the characters and plots that we find fascinating are the same that GRRM finds essential. The Iron Throne is a focal point for many plots, but will GRRM resolve this? I kind of feel that he'd rather resolve Tyrion's tormented soul than who rules The Seven Kingdoms; that he'd rather tell us the meaning of "promise me, Ned" than what Brienne's word was; that he might spend a lot more time on Davos' personal theological musings rather than tell us who The Other is; and that he'd rather exorcize Sandor's demons than give the Starks their revenge.

 

[andyn]

No matter the ending, some one will be disappointed. Personally i would like to see Tyrion to come out smelling of roses and Jamie redeeming himself by defending Danys. But who knows, the joy of this series is that it is truly unpredictable and i doubt if GRRM has truly decided how it will all end.

 

[Boaz]

I think GRRM knows exactly how it ends. This is how he's been able to string so many threads together from the very beginning.

 

[C Of K]

I think GRRM knows exactly how it ends. This is how he's been able to string so many threads together from the very beginning.

Perhaps he does, but it wouldn't be reaching to guess that he may not. Writing is usually a process of discovery for the author as much as anyone. With the magnitude of this over-all story, things are subject to change several times before the end comes.

GRRM displayed a measure of difficulty finishing AFFC. I'm not certain if he was sure how to approach the story at first, hence the very long wait. Regardless, he's not one to settle for just any quality of writing.

It can be argued that it is all the things that could have happened -- and didn't, that will help make this journey's end a worthwhile one.

 

[Deblois]

I think GRRM knows exactly how it ends. This is how he's been able to string so many threads together from the very beginning.

Hi all - I'm a newbie here, but I have been enjoying all of your insights for a few days since I stumbled across this site. Nice to find so many who share my obsession!

I would imagine that George knows exactly where he is going to end up, but not exactly how he will get there. Like the old analogy of the act of writing a story being like driving from NY to LA - you know where you are starting and where you will finish, as well as stops in Chi town or Albuquerque along the way, but the roads you take to get there are not as certain.

With all of these threads in place from the start I think deviations would pose a bigger and bigger problem as he gets deeper into the story. I sometimes wonder if this is what he is struggling against now.

 

[C Of K]

Nicely put, and welcome. Uh. I'm sort of a newbie, too. Joined yesterday.

 

[Boaz]

Welcome guys!

Good points on the author's journey in writing. Perhaps, GRRM has discovered sides of characters that he'd not anticipated. Now that I think about it, I'd be surprised if his own characters did not surprise him once or twice. But we're talking about the conclusion, so considering the depth of layers and plots I'd be astonished if Martin did not have a way to tie all of it up.

I'd like to pose a question or two to those of you who've gone to hear Martin read samples of upcoming works or to hear him discuss the craft of writing... Has GRRM mentioned the order of how he's constructed this tale? I mean did he start with the beginning or the ending? Did he start with the overall tale and work down or did he start with a few small stories and weave them together to form his epic? Wert, TK, Florian, Raven, and company please feel free to wax eloquent.

 

[C Of K]

Thanks for the welcome.

I'd like to know the answer to those questions, too. I'm tackling a rather large project myself. Learning how a pro did it would really be valuable insight.

And you're probably right about him knowing the end. He does have a lot of plot twists to tie up. I have a feeling that many, thought to be, important strings will remain unresolved, though.

He's already killed several characters I previously thought were essential to the future of the story. GRRM keeps me guessing. That's why I keep coming back for more. Sometimes ignorance is bliss.

Boaz, I've read some of your other posts. You seem to able to keep track of many of the smaller, seemingly insignificant, details of the stories with ease.

*shakes head* I don't know how you do it.

 

[TK-421]

I'll wax eloquent later but carefull now, I can see Boaz's head inflating from here (3 time zones away...)

Maybe the more important question is does he have a life

Sorry, if it seems like I'm picking on you Boaz, but we really need to get together for beers at some point (and maybe we'll invite the rest of the Tyrion Fan Club as well).

 

[Deblois]

Thanks for the welcome.

He's already killed several characters I previously thought were essential to the future of the story. GRRM keeps me guessing. That's why I keep coming back for more. Sometimes ignorance is bliss.

CofK
I know what you mean about him killing off characters who seemed essential. I wish I had a video of me reading the execution of Ned Stark for the first time. I was sure that it couldn't happen, didn't buy into it at all - even after it was done. I kept waiting for some cheesy dream sequence and for Ned to wake up later in a sweat. I couldn't believe he would off such a seemingly integral character - there was so much more Ned had to do! I read on a bit more guarded after that. By the time I got to the Red Wedding.....

Point is, who knows who will be standing by the time we get to the end of the saga.

 

[C Of K]

You said it!

The Red Wedding... It was -- it was super BOMB badd.

I can't believe some of the stuff GRRM gets away with. He's killing all my heroes.

 

[Boaz]

Boaz, I've read some of your other posts. You seem to able to keep track of many of the smaller, seemingly insignificant, details of the stories with ease.

Flattery will get you everywhere. I must say that almost all of my observations are not original. Others put their gray matter hard to work and developed the insights and theories posted here. I just happen to be fairly vocal.

I'll admit that last year while I was rereading ASOIAF, I had this fantastic concept pop into my brain. I immediately ran to the computer and posted my wonderful insight into the story. Ten minutes later someone posted something to the effect of "Boaz, sorry but that's not new. There's already a thread about this topic. In fact, you posted your thoughts on it!" I did not remember reading about that topic, but it was in there in black and white. That was embarrassing.

TK, I take it all in stride. <Knocks on wood.> If you ever happen to come to Denver and especially if the Senators happen to be in town, then we should go get a few beers and watch the game.

Anyway... to stay on topic... Reading ASOIAF, I get a different feeling than some other fiction. David Eddings' Belgariad, Raymond Feist's Krondor books after A Darkness At Sethanon, and all of the Dragonlance books all felt open-ended to me. By open ended, I mean I never felt the author had a precise idea of how much action and how many plot lines would be involved before the conclusion of the tale. I read Feist's stuff in college and I liked it very much, but after the original story it felt like any time he had an idea for a story he just plunked it into Krondor regardless whether that was the world in which it belonged or not.

Many authors also start throwing in back story during the third and fourth books in a five book series, e.g. Edding's Belgariad. Authors can choose to reveal information in a series when they choose, but getting to know a character from his/her point of view for three books and then finding out powerful motivations seems at best untimely and at worst just made up on the spot to flesh out the character. In my opinion, GRRM has not done this. The story about Maggy and Cersei at first seemed like Martin was just throwing it in, until I realized that I'd known Cersei for three books but never seen things from her POV. Perhaps, one could say that Jaime's feelings about his father and mother were late in being shown... but I'd say that his father's murder brought these feelings and memories up and still they were mostly relegated to dreams.

The gist of what I'm saying is that ASOIAF has had a very cohesive feel to it from the beginning. I assume that this is more than just luck on GRRM's part. I think he's planned this story meticulously. Many author's try to backdoor prophecy into their stories. Martin has put up a large amount of prophecy and foreshadowing up front. The only backdooring has been the Valonqar prophecy in Cersei's POV, but again that's explained by the fact that we never had a Cersei POV up until AFFC... I think it's good timing. ASOIAF does not feel open ended to me. It feels directed and focused.

 

[Florian the Fool]

The gist of what I'm saying is that ASOIAF has had a very cohesive feel to it from the beginning. I assume that this is more than just luck on GRRM's part. I think he's planned this story meticulously. Many author's try to backdoor prophecy into their stories. Martin has put up a large amount of prophecy and foreshadowing up front. The only backdooring has been the Valonqar prophecy in Cersei's POV, but again that's explained by the fact that we never had a Cersei POV up until AFFC... I think it's good timing. ASOIAF does not feel open ended to me. It feels directed and focused.

Sorry to take the wind out of your sails, Boaz, but Raven will do it to you anyway, and it's so rare to get the opportunity to beat him to it.

I may be teaching my gran to suck eggs here, but I think this is relevant to your point. I have no doubt that if it isn't, I'll soon be told.

I was lucky enough to get to a talk/signing with GRRM on his FFC tour, and someone asked more or less this exact question. His answer is one I've seen him give in a few other places. He divides authors into architects and gardeners.

Architects meticulously plan their books, creating detailed blueprints of every part of the story, chapter by chapter breakdowns so they know exactly what is happening, and what is going to happen. Then they fill out the rigid outline with prose, and build their novel.

Gardeners have a seed of an idea, and allow it to organically grow, exploring characters and their motivations by placing them in particular situations and seeing what they do (e.g. "I wonder what this character would do if I have him discovered cavorting with his twin sister by a small child...Good God, he's pushed him out of the window!!")

GRRM is very much of the second type. The first chapter came to him in a flash of inspiration while he was working on some other (now lost) novel, and he planted it in his fertile imagination to see what it would grow into.

From what I can gather, I think he had a fairly strong (but not immovable) idea of what the fate of the major characters was going to be at the end of the story (The Stark kids, Dany, Tyrion), but everything else was open-ended. For instance, I doubt characters like Brienne and Davos had even occured to him when he started out and I doubt he's decided their final destination even now.

He knows who's going to win the war with the Others, of course, but then so do we, don't we?

Also, if ASoIF was as meticuously planned as you suggest, it wouldn't have taken him seven years to write FFC.

Of course, the fact that it all appears to cohesive and structured rather than improvised just makes the achievement all the more impressive.

Does this answer your point, or should I return to lurking and keep my foolish opinions to myself....

 

[the smiling weirwood]

I may be teaching my gran to suck eggs here, but I think this is relevant to your point.

I don't think teaching your grandmother to suck eggs is relevant at all. In fact, I question your entire post if you use such logic to justify your responses.