The Conclusion of the Song:Inevitable Disappointment?

[TK-421]

He knows who's going to win the war with the Others, of course, but then so do we, don't we?

Also, if ASoIF was as meticuously planned as you suggest, it wouldn't have taken him seven years to write FFC.

Well, please enlighten us on the first point.

And on the second point, I don't think this is a very good arguement. JK Rowling also knew how it would all end and she also took a while to write that series.

 

[Florian the Fool]

On the first point, I'm going out on a limb and assuming that the Good Guys will win. Has there ever been an epic fantasy where the Bad Guys have won?

On the second point, Rowling did indeed know how the series was going to end, but I don't know to what extent the stuff in between the beginning and the end was planned, and how much was discovered during the writing process. She may have found a number of diversions were necessary to get to her destination.

My argument is only that had the story of ASoIF been as meticulously plotted as Boaz was suggesting, GRRM wouldn't have given up after two years (or however long it was) on volume four and started again from scratch with a new plot structure. To stretch the analogy past breaking point, an architect doesn't change to a new style halfway through building his..err...building, but a gardener might drastically prune his...err...shrub (?) because he doesn't like the shape it's growing into.

I've just read that last paragraph over, and I think I have to go and lie down now.

 

[Trey Greyjoy]

GRRM has himself said that the ending will be bittersweet. Im envisioning an overall "win" by the "goodguys", but at a hefty price.
I also expect some measures of "justice" will not be served in the finale.

 

[Boaz]

Florian, thanks. That's the feedback I am looking for. Please go ahead and take all the wind out of my sails. It seems that every time I get going full of confidence that I need to learn to slow down and be humble.

The broad characterizations of gardeners and architects are easily understandable. Yet, all analogies have a limit, so I must point out that GRRM is not planting unknown seeds... I mean he's not expecting an acorn to become a cornstalk. That's not a crack at you... I'm not a writer, I'm just a self-appointed critic. It's very difficult to fathom that Martin does not have a concrete grasp on the ending... I suspect that even if he told me face to face that I would not believe him.

Thanks again. Perhaps Raven will still stop in to enlighten me further.

 

[Culhwch]

On the first point, I'm going out on a limb and assuming that the Good Guys will win. Has there ever been an epic fantasy where the Bad Guys have won?

Yes, but has there ever been another series were the 'good guys' and the 'bad guys' were so easy to confuse, and so hard to pin down?

 

[Florian the Fool]

Yes, but has there ever been another series were the 'good guys' and the 'bad guys' were so easy to confuse, and so hard to pin down?

Excellent point, and that very confusion is one of the things that makes this series such a standout. But it seems to me that the blurred distinction between the Good Guys and Bad Guys exists only amongst the people of Westeros. There's no indication that any human is considering siding with the Others, or that some of the Others are having trouble with their consciences about the invasion of the worlds of men (I suppose there is Coldhands, but he isn't an Other, he seems to be a wight who has somehow maintained a sense of self and escaped full enslavement to their will).

So taking the Bad Guys to be the Others, and the Good Guys to be whoever is fighting the Others, I'm pretty sure the Good Guys will prove victorious, otherwise the ending will not just be bittersweet but downright depressing. Although, as TG says, that victory will not be without considerable sacrifice, the extent of which remains unknown.

Boaz, I take your point about acorns not growing into cornstalks, but to me this means that when GRRM got to work on the first chapter, he wasn't expecting it to grow into a murder mystery, or a saga about a plucky East End lass finding love amongst the rubble of the Blitz. He knew he would be writing a multi-volume epic fantasy (although even he didn't know just how multi-volume - it was originally supposed to be in three volumes).

 

[Rahl Windsong]

In order to be able to defeat the Others, I think most or all will have to be on the side of the "living" orvictory will not be possible. At the end I see Danny and her dragons standing ready to defend the wall with all the might of Westeros to command in victory or utter defeat. The Starks may have roused their own dragon(s) by then as well. Tyrion will be a general in Danny's army and she will marry Jon Snow and live happily ever after!

Anyway thats how I see it, I hope George has a better view and surprises me like he has so far!

 

[Weasel Soup]

Will the dragons necessarily be the key to defeating the others?

Have been thinking about this lately, I was under the belief that the dragons first came to westeros with the targaryen's with aegon the conquerer. At the time of winters first defeat and the building of the wall was it just the first men and children of the forest?

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

First off, I would so read a book about a plucky east end lass who found love in the rubble of the blitz...if it was written by Martin. He would probably kill of the plucky lass but then bring her back as some sort of undead through her sheer plucky will and the power of love only to find her true love was killed a half hour before she came back. Now she must find a way to make him an undead like her by worshipping elder gods of doom who she plans on betraying at the ritual to bring her lover back......what an excellent story that would be.

So anyhow....on to the germane part of the post....

Will the dragons necessarily be the key to defeating the others?

I think Weasel (and this is just my completely uninformed opinion/speculation....we'll call it my opinulation)....the difference between then and now is the Children are weaker because magic is coming back slowly. The Others rely on certain element of muscle and as such are coming to power faster than the children....much much faster. Also the strength of the First Men is scattered. So I think that the Stark children coming of age and the dragons returning will be vital to the deeat of the other.

Once again....all just speculinion.

 

[Boaz]

Florian, thanks for the input. My interest in GRRM's methods probably stem from analyzing my methods of song writing. I'm no Lieber/Stoller, Lennon/McCartney, nor Holland/Dozier/Holland and I've never been trained formally in music, but I enjoy the creative process of music and lyrics.

I usually have thoughts brewing and stewing for weeks and months before I grasp a few definite words or phrases that mean exactly what I feel. Then I start writing, just writing out what I want to say. Sometimes the rhymes start right away and sometimes not. I try to nail the opening lines for each verse and the main line of the chorus and then go back in and fill out the rest. I tend to stay with strong themes throughout. Then I work on the melody that I've been thinking about. From what I've read, that's opposite of most famous/popular composers... they get the tune first, then they get the words.

Sorry to bore you. Anyway my song writing style seems more rigid than GRRM's style. So I guess I'm projecting my views onto him... figure out the whole, nail down the major details and segues, then flesh it out. Hmmm, it's hard to not think of the song/story as a construct... it's difficult to see it as a living thing.

opinulation... speculinion.

You kill me.

 

[thatollie]

The reason GRRM writes cohesive novels even if he doesn't know all the ins and outs in advance is because he doesn't plan the "what", he plans the "why".

 

[the smiling weirwood]

We know magic is coming back to the world for certain, because this is some powerful thread necromancy here.

 

[Boaz]

thatollie, I love thread necromancy. Why start a new thread where there's a perfectly good one already out there? I don't remember seeing you around the GRRM forum before... Welcome.

 

[BaDHaBiTt]

I see that a lot of ppl want Dany to return in a glorious way, well I hope that she dies moahaha

 

[the smiling weirwood]

I hope she makes a return and a large part of that is that Robert Baratheon was a bungling fool and ****** the whole kingdom up, so I'd like to see someone put it to right, and Dany is the best candidate for that.

 

[thatollie]

thatollie, I love thread necromancy. Why start a new thread where there's a perfectly good one already out there? I don't remember seeing you around the GRRM forum before... Welcome.

It was quoted elsewhere, I followed the link and the thing I wanted to comment on was here. I've been on this bit a bit.