The Stone Cold Lock on Jon!

[Critical Matt]

Alright. I've read the books. I've read the R+L=J thread (well, parts of it), and I've been drinking. The kids are with the grandparents and wifey's got a wicked summer cold.

I listened to the audiobooks for the entire series also and I know for a fact that Tyrion gives away the answer for the three heads of the dragon. Something about a sister and wife. Anyway, I'm going to take the bullet and listen to the damn things again and get the exact quote. I just wanted everyone to know I've got the answer and that you can thank me now when it's confirmed in the next book (or the year 2020, whichever comes first).

Enjoy your weekend!

Edit: I should point out that I am in no way an expert on the works of George R.R. Martin. I have no particular insight. I read threads here and think to myself, "Huh?" or "No sh-t?" or "That person has read these books - a lot".

But I do have the answer. Yes, I do.

Edit 2: I just realized I should give the answer for the record. The three heads of the dragon are Jon, Daenarus, and Jon's horse faced sister whose name escapes me at the moment, but doesn't matter because she's a faceless man...

 

[Boaz]

Jon marrying Arya? Could happen. If R+L=J, then Jon is Arya's cousin not her brother and he'd be Dany's nephew.

As it currently stands, the general populace only knows that of all the Stark children, only Arya is alive... the fake Arya. Littlefinger knows Sansa is alive and he'll keep her there until the threat of execution for Joffrey's murder is gone. Being older and with Bran and Rickon assumed dead, Sansa is heir to Winterfell. If Edmure dies with no issue and if the Blackfish is killed, then Sansa is heir to Riverrun also. I'm using the term heir very loosely here. Primogeniture seems to be the law of inheritance among the Andals and the First Men, while Agnatic Law (the eldest male... uncle, brother, son) seems to be practiced by the Ironborn, and a Semi-Salic version of Agnatic Law is practiced by the Dornishmen... this means that the eldest relative inherits regardless of sex.

Anyway, Sansa would not inherit, but her husband would... I know no one would make her husband Lord of the North and Lord of the Riverlands, but either makes her a very attractive bride. Combining the North with the Night's Watch by a Jon and Sansa wedding would be a powerful combination to the Targaryen/Night's Watch power base created by a Dany and Jon wedding.

Honor, faithfulness, and family mean something to Dany. Will she align with the Dornish? They need to prove they've been loyal these past sixteen years. But on the plus side, they are willing to be governed by a woman and once Dorne's in line the other Houses may follow.

Will she align with the Ironborn? She won't be in charge in a marriage with Euron... she'll not give up control of the dragons. On the other hand, Victarion will woo for himself and he'll pale in comparison to Drogo.

Will she align with Highgarden? The Tyrells are rich and powerful. Their military (after the Iron Fleet) may be her biggest hurdle in gaining the throne... but they have a fleet also to offer her. But she'll probably have to marry one of the Tyrell boys in order to gain the throne... the Tyrells won't take their daughter off the throne for nothing.

What scheme is Littlefinger hatching? If the Martells and Greyjoys know about Dany's growing power, then you can bet Baelish knows all about it. What will he offer Dany? An impregnable home in the Eyrie, an army untouched by the War of the Five Kings, and his Midas touch are what he could offer.

Dany has to destroy the Lannisters. She must do this to secure justice for the people, revenge for her family, and peace of mind for herself.

So who sounds more attractive to you guys?

Dorne? Dany and Quentyn (possibly Arianne, too).

Highgarden? Dany and Loras and Margaery (she's still a virgin, I swear it) or Dany and Willas (if Bran or Tyrion could ride a dragon, why not Willas? he's crippled, too) and Margaery.

Iron Islands? Dany and Euron and Asha.

The Vale? Dany and Robert and Sansa.

The North? Dany and Jon and Sansa or Dany and Jon and Arya (real or fake) or Dany and Jon and Stannis or Dany and Stannis and Melissandre.

I've not been drinking, though I often post when I do. No, tonight I'm just rambling.

 

[andyn]

Dany will end up forming an allegiance with Jon and Sam.

 

[TK-421]

How about all of the above? It's kind of like those multiple choice test I used to have in university. When you have no f#^% clue, go for the last option of: all of the above.

I am sure Critical Matt and Andyn are quickly learning that Boaz talks out of both ends sometimes. But that's what makes him so endearing.

 

[Boaz]

I am sure Critical Matt and Andyn are quickly learning that Boaz talks out of both ends sometimes. But that's what makes him so endearing.

Noooo! They're on to me!

Too funny, TK.

 

[C Of K]

Now we see why GRRM hires fans as body guards. He won't so much as stump a toe until after this book is FIN-ished

 

[BridgerandObie]

Jon marrying Arya? Could happen. If R+L=J, then Jon is Arya's cousin not her brother and he'd be Dany's nephew.

Jon and Arya marrying? About as likely as Tyrion selling Cercei to Bronn for one magical night. George is one hell of a writer and is no Robert Jordan. My point to this is he only has a few more books to wrap up the story lines, and the last we understood of the relationship between Jon and Arya, it ended with the "mussing" of hair and to kill with "the pointy end". Now, unless Georgie is foreshadowing a little sex scene between J and A, I find it hard to believe he has the space or credibility to turn what both to believe each other as the most accepting Stark siblings into lovers. Just sounds a little "As the World Turns" to me.

 

[ras'matroi]

I think it is neccesary to consider what Dany is aiming at.

On option is to regain power over Westeroes another to fight and defeat the Others.

For the first option I would go for Dorne or Highgarden as possible allies

for the second I think it would be the Starks, the Nightwatch or even the Wilderlings since they seem to be the only ones who are aware of the danger.

But I would like to see the Starks sticking to their wolves. They probably have some power to fight the others, too. After all they lived in the same terretories for a long time and survived. (that would leave Sansa to change over to a dragon)

 

[Boaz]

(that would leave Sansa to change over to a dragon)

She already has bonded with an animal. Lady's death left a void in Sansa's soul. Bonding with a dragon will allow Sansa to say, "You complete me."

 

[TK-421]

I think it is neccesary to consider what Dany is aiming at.

On option is to regain power over Westeroes another to fight and defeat the Others.

Dany could not consiously be aiming for defeating the Others since she does not know yet of their existence and threat. Only those on the Wall really know of their threat. Now, if Dany meets up with Sam, he would surely tell her. Otherwise, how is she to find out where she is. I mean Ravens and emissaries (Yoren) from the Wall fall on deaf ears in King's Landing.

 

[lauren20062001]

I don't think Jon could marry either of the Stark girls, he was raised as a sibling to Arya, and a half-brother to Sansa. Unlike the Tars, the Starks don't raise their children with the idea of marrying them to one another. I never saw Arya as even one of the possible heads of the dragon, anyone want to explain that theory?

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

I swear to all thats holy, if Jon and Arya hook up in any way that is not conducive to to a G rating I will close the book, puke, and began bashing Martins writing on every message board Ive ever been near. I am that vindictive. I am so violently against that outcome I can actually feel the bile rising to the back of my throat as I type this.

Now on to more important matters...I think we're missing the import of the heads of the dragon. It does stand to reason that the three are Targaryens. Its not necessarily so, however. So Arya could be one of the infamous "heads", without being a Targ. Its one of those "if P then Q, but if not P then not Q does not follow" scenarios.

She is still the sister of Jon regardless of actual birth.

(For the record I think the three heads are Jon Dany and Aegon.)

Im curious as to what passage Tyrion revealed. So if the original poster (Critical Matt) needs to recreate the events of that night, just give me an idea where to send your case of Labatts Blue, and maybe a nice Cabernet Sauvignon for the wife.....and get crackin or listening....or whatever.

And Boaz does speak out of both ends....it is known.

 

[Boaz]

I don't think Jon could marry either of the Stark girls, he was raised as a sibling to Arya, and a half-brother to Sansa. Unlike the Tars, the Starks don't raise their children with the idea of marrying them to one another. I never saw Arya as even one of the possible heads of the dragon, anyone want to explain that theory?

When Tyrion asks Bronn to fight the Mountain for him. Bronn chooses life with Lollys over saving Tyrion. Bronn says something to the effect of "If you had a choice of fighting that thing or *&%$#*&@ Lollys, you'd have your pants down and your ^#$* up asap!" Tyrion had to admit it was true.

The possible reasons for a Stark girl being one of the heads are as follows... and no I don't believe what I'm saying. Some of these are mere possibilities not prophecy.
1. The title is A Song Of Ice And Fire. Fire=Targ. Ice=Stark (mayhaps Ice=The Other).
2. Dany is a Targ. Jon is half-Targ and half-Stark. To balance things out, a true Stark would fit nicely as the third head. And no matter what Aegon says about Jon+Arya being gross... Jon+Rickon is grosser.
3. Arya looks like Lyanna.
4. Sansa's hair may remind Jon of Ygritte... or mayhaps Ygritte was just a forerunner to Sansa.
5. Dany is triumphant. The Other is defeated. The Wildlings are incorporated into the Seven Kingdoms. Jon is now out of a job and willing to take up his Targ destiny and rule... but the North still needs to be brought in the fold and this is where a Stark comes in.
6. Dany is still enamored with Drogo, the greatest killer of all time. She'll be impressed with Arya's mounting total and Arya's commitment to becoming the most capable mass murderer of all time.
7. Dany and Sansa, both disillusioned with ever finding a real man, will fall for each other.
8. While we watched Arya turn into Darth Vader in the first four books, we'll see GRRM redeem her in the last book. She can only be redeemed by the two great heroes... Dany and Jon.
9. Sansa began the series with dreams of princes, heroes, tourneys, and galas. She's been severely disillusioned. Mayhaps things will come full circle and she'll be rescued.
10. Jon's broken his vows multiple times already. If the choice was saving the world by marrying Dany and one of his sisters or letting everyone die, I tell ya he'd have his pants down and his @%#$ up before you could say Winter is Coming.

 

[Boaz]

After taking a shower this moring, I came up with some more thoughts.

11. Aegon the Conqueror was one of the original three heads along with his two sisters. Dany no longer has siblings... unless Tyrion is a Targ. But Jon does have siblings... Aegon, Sansa, Arya, Bran, and Rickon. Now Sansa and Arya have both lost their wolves, what if Ghost is lost to Jon? Since the Snow/Stark kids know how to bond with animals, mayhaps those three would bond with the dragons. The three heads would be Jon, Sansa and Arya.
12. To defeat The Other the Westerosi must unite. Mayhaps the three heads signify the ability to combat The Other on different levels. Dragons symbolize air superiority. Wolves signify control of the ground. Trout and Krakens are both from the water. Asha, Theon, Victarion, Euron, Edmure, Brynden, and/or Sansa (a half-Tully with full Tully looks) might represent Water while Dany and Jon represent Air and Earth.
13. Arya will soon gain the ability to alter her appearance. She may appear in a form that is irresistable to Dany... and Jon.

How is Jon+Arya any grosser than Jaime+Cersei, Tyrion+any whore, and Sam+... you know what? I can't even go there...

Jon's been on his way with Arya since the first book... I have something for you... close the door... this is no toy... it's so skinny... so are you... stick them with the pointy end... I know which end to use... Who will I practice with?... find a partner... watch... whatever you do don't tell Sansa.

That does not portray Jon in a positive light.

While seperated neither Jon nor Arya missed a parent, sibling, relative or any friend like they longed for each other. And anyway they will find out that they are not siblings, merely cousins... kissin' cousins. Jon told Arya sometimes different roads lead to the same castle.

 

[TK-421]

Jon & Arya...geeessshhh, we must be getting desperate for something to talk about.

Anyways, I always thought of Arya as being one of the 3 Heads and some of your arguements, Boaz, are good. In particular, numbers 1, 2 and 10 (I know this last one will get me in trouble with those who love Jon - don't get me wrong, I like him too but I see him with 'human faults').

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

I love the spin Boaz. Absolutely love it. Do you perchance work in the media....or plan presidential campaigns?

J+A...still disgusting.

Why do they have to "bump uglies" to be the heads of the dragon?

 

[JDP]

I don't see Arya being the head of the dragon either - she's been telling her own story from the very beginning, not going along with everyone else's. I think that's how she'll continue.

Also, she's not heir to Winterfell or the Crown of the North or the Riverlands - Robb willed the Crown to Jon in the event of his death, and Sansa's the heir to Winterfell as the older sibling, and I guess the Riverlands as well (only if something happens to Edmure's child - and assuming they get it back from the Freys).

It's possible that the third head of the dragon could be Arianne Martell, though I find her extremely annoying. The Prince of Dorne had been planning to marry her to Viserys, Dany's late brother.

Alternatively, Bran could be the third head; he can use his Warg abilities to control a dragon and there would never be any question of funny business with Dany (or Jon... eeeww...) because of his physical limitations. This would also balance out the Targaryen/Targaryen-Stark/Stark equation. No Dragon blood in him though, which might make this the wrong tree to be barking up.

 

[ras'matroi]

I still think that Tyrion could be one of the heads. I think it has been discossed before but in his second pov in AGoT it says:

1. He reads some rare books on dragons, he borrowed from the library of Winterfell.
2. 'Tyrion had a morbid fascination with dragons.'
3.he looked for the dragonskulls, when ha came to King's Landing, found them and thought them rather beautiful than frightening
$. He tells Jon how he dreamed of riding a dragon as a child and that ha was fascinated by fire.

I don't remember if there were other passages like that. But to tell this to the reader at the beginning of the story, when the characters are still introduced it appeares to be important.

I don't think that Bran will be one of the three but probably he even so will be able to controll one of the dragons. His power is still growing.

If Jon really is part Targ it might enabel him to ride and controll one of the dragons. The same as the Szak blood enables the Stark kids to bind with the direwolves. This theory would mean that there has to be a third Targ. That's if only Targs are able to team up with dragons.

 

[YOSSARIAN]

Arya cannot be one of the heads...because of a new theory I'm working on. I can't get in into yet because I don't have all the info I need to back it up-but it sets Arya against the Targs and possibly Jon.

 

[Boaz]

Robb willed the Crown to Jon in the event of his death

You don't know this to be true! This has not been confirmed! I am a stickler for details! There will be no conjectural conclusions from unsubstantiated rumors on my watch... unless I personally make them... then it's okay.

The following bears the official Boaz stamp of nonsensical approval.

In ACOK, during the second or third Bran chapter, Meera and Jojen come to a great feast at Winterfell. They swear their allegiance to House Stark with the following words.

"To Winterfell we pledge the faith of Greywater," they said together. "Hearth and heart and harvest we yield up to you, my lord. Our swords and spears and arrows are yours to command. Grant mercy to our weak, help to our helpless, and justice to all, and we shall never fail you."
"I swear it by earth and water," said the boy in green.
"I swear it by bronze and iron," his sister said.
"We swear it by ice and fire," they finished together.
Bran groped for words. Was he supposed to swear something back to them? Their oath was not one he had been taught.

Meera and Jojen sound like the Wonder Twins. "Form of a gorilla!" "Shape of a giant icicle!" I think the above passage proves that the title ASOIAF is all about the Reed kids. There will be three heads of the dragon... Bran, Meera, and Jojen. They swore it by ice and fire!

Seriously, I read this today and I was floored. I thought about starting a new thread... but since this is the current Jon thread I thought I'd post here.

Howland Reed's children swore by ice and fire. Why? Everyone thinks the Crannogmen are weird so they don't take notice of the oath. But Bran's thought regarding the vow was Their oath was not one he had been taught. Bran had never heard this oath... this means he had heard and been taught the oaths of other houses, like the Boltons, the Karstarks, the Umbers, etc. Ser Roderick and Maester Luwin are shown to be highly conscientious and thorough in counseling and educating Bran, yet they somehow overlooked this one thing. Maester Luwin admits that he "had not thought to see them" in Winterfell. But I got the feeling from the chapter that neither Luwin nor Roderick were not prepared for the Reeds nor their oath.

I think Howland directed his children to speak in unison (this way neither would forget the words on the long journey to Winterfell) We swear it by ice and fire as a secret message. From later ACOK and ASOS chapters it is clear that Howland Reed told his children many tales of his younger days, especially his adventures among the Starks. Howland knew whatever secret Eddard kept for Lyanna... of course I assume the secret is 1) that Jon is Lyanna's son by Rhaegar and 2) that Rhaegar and Lyanna were legally married before Jon was born and 3) that Lyanna and Rhaegar believed in their hearts that Jon was the culmination of Ice and Fire, i.e. the Prince that was promised (TPTWP) aka Azor Ahai reborn.

I assume that Howland knew of Ned's death when he sent his children off to Winterfell. I think that upon hearing of Ned's death (Ned's dead, baby. Ned's dead.), Howland knew that he needed to get in touch with Ned's contingency plan for Jon. The words We swear it by ice and fire might be the activating password that the Reeds are in on Ned's plan. Mayhaps Ned left instructions for an agent to open an sealed paper or do a specific action upon hearing the password.

I'm stringing this out trying to explain my thinking and to get you to buy into the idea... here it is.

We swear it by ice and fire lets Maester Luwin know that Howland is the executor of Ned's secret plan. Luwin opens a sealed note that Ned left for him at Lyanna's tomb. The note tells Luwin to send word to Benjen to talk to Jon. Benjen knows Ned's secret, but Benjen is missing and presumed dead. So Luwin is in a quandary about what to do... So Luwin sends a message to Aemon to tell Benjen to enact Ned's plan. Aemon does not know the secret so he leaves a message with Jon to give to Benjen. This means Jon holds an unknowable message about himself that only Benjen (or Howland) can reveal.

This is all complete, total, and unsubstantiated speculation based on...
"We swear it by ice and fire," they finished together.
Bran groped for words. Was he supposed to swear something back to them? Their oath was not one he had been taught.

Why did Meera and Jojen swear by ice and fire? They also swore by earth and water, bronze and iron. I'd expect to find earth and water in abundance around Greywater Watch. So the Reeds swore by their characteristics of their homeland. Remember Robb's crown was made of bronze and iron, i.e. the metals of the North and of Winter. The Reeds swore by the characteristics of the Stark's homeland. Ice and Fire are the components of TPTWP. The Reeds swore by Jon, i.e. their hope.