Martin reading newbie here

[Boaz]

Excellent, Zee. Don't feel confused you just as much as the rest of us, well except for Wert and Raven.

Cersei has one redeeming quality... she's hot. And in her mind, that's enough.

Jaime's new found desire to do the right thing is indeed fun to watch. I'm cheering for him, but I'm not convinced he'll completely come over to the good side. With a trebuchet, he said.

Catelyn is... you know what? I'm not going to reiterate my hatred again. Instead I'll just welcome you to the club.

Sansa "forgetting" who she is and psychologically adopting Alayne is something new to me. I think this is a very interesting observation. The kindly man at the house of Blank and White is very overt in trying to persuade Arya into denying her background and Arya fights him... while on the other hand Petyr has asked Sansa only to pretend to be Alayne and Sansa seems to be eager to do so. Hmmm. I wish I had something more substantial to say about this. I guess I'll have to wait for the others to chime in.

Theon will have a POV in ADWD.

Brienne is a character that is new to me. I've read dozens and dozens and dozens of fantasy books over the decades and I can't remember another character like Brienne. I've seen enough Jons, Neds, Robbs, Danys and Brans to make me puke... and by killing Ned so quickly, GRRM sucked me in. Ned was supposed to be the hero. Ned's dead, baby. Ned's dead. Anyway, I've seen Cersei, Robert, Littlefinger, Tywin, Varys, Theons, Eurons, Aryas, and all the rest. Yet I cannot recall a mule headed, freakish strong, conservative, noble, giant, warrior maid who continually quests with an ineptness to rival Pate the spotted Pig Boy. Mayhaps I've been reading the wrong books, but she's a breath of fresh air to me.

Martin has given great twists to old characters and plot lines and by doing so has created some memorable heroes/villains... the line tends to blur. Jaime is developing a conscience while Tyrion and Stannis are losing theirs. Ned cherished his honor and yet his daughters are learning to be conniving backstabbers, one quite literally.

 

[TK-421]

Good summary Zee of some of the characters but, I disagree (because I like to sometimes) on 2 points:

Cersei: She has the redeeming quality of being an overprotective mother to Tommen. But take heart, she's stupid and f@*#ed things royally for little Tommen. And, Boaz, she's loosing that hottness factor and getting rather rotund.

Jaime: Even though he's doing some decent things now, he will never trully be a "good guy".

Oh and Boaz, Tyrion is not loosing his consious, he's just forgotten it for a while. I know of a real little hottie with 3 dragons that can make him remember it real fast.

 

[Zee]

Sansa "forgetting" who she is and psychologically adopting Alayne is something new to me. I think this is a very interesting observation. The kindly man at the house of Blank and White is very overt in trying to persuade Arya into denying her background and Arya fights him... while on the other hand Petyr has asked Sansa only to pretend to be Alayne and Sansa seems to be eager to do so. Hmmm. I wish I had something more substantial to say about this. I guess I'll have to wait for the others to chime in.

Yes I don't know if this is what Martin is going for with the Sansa storyline, but in the later chapters he introduces them as "Alayne" as opposed to "Sansa" which might show she's starting to think of herself as Alayne. During her POV thoughts she refers to Peter as "my father" so it could be that she'll totally go across and accept being another person. This is not that unusual in people that have suffered severe emotional distress.

 

[Zee]

Good summary Zee of some of the characters but, I disagree (because I like to sometimes) on 2 points:

Jaime: Even though he's doing some decent things now, he will never trully be a "good guy".

Are there truly any "good guys" in Martin's world though? People do what they do out of either duty, loyalty or some other motive such as love. There have been so many people who have killed others, can any of them be seen as good? Even if you agree with what they've done and why they've had to murder people, does it ultimately make them a bad person? I don't know.

 

[Boaz]

Ned's a good guy. Boring, misguided, judgemental, and humorless, but he's a good guy.

Jaime's been a bad guy, a very bad guy. He'd like to be a good guy and he's working on it, but it's hard for him. He and Tyrion are my favorite characters. I really am enjoying Jaime's working out of his salvation... He's asking himself these questions: Should I repent and to whom? Can I atone for my crimes? Can I just forget the past and start over? Could anyone really love me for me? Can I change the way history will view me? He's intriuging to be sure, but his crimes are plentiful.

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

Are there truly any "good guys" in Martin's world though? People do what they do out of either duty, loyalty or some other motive such as love. There have been so many people who have killed others, can any of them be seen as good? Even if you agree with what they've done and why they've had to murder people, does it ultimately make them a bad person? I don't know.

Welcome to "Why Aegon loves this Series".......its a new game show....no prizes, so its kinda lame....

Anyhow....lessee, a list of good guys...Well theres Ned (DEAD), Aemon (DEAD) Robb (DEAD) Jon Arryn (DEAD) Lord Mormont (DEAD) Donal Noye (DEAD) Great Jon Umber (DEAD) Qhorin Halfhand (DEAD) Beric Dondarrion (DEAD) ......Im sure I missed a few corpses....strike that I mean good guys. Im sure I missed a few good guys....

Theres still Jon Snow, Samwell, Garlan Tyrell, Barristan freakin Selmy, and a few others left....

 

[TK-421]

Oh come on Aegon, I expect my life-size cardboard cutout of Tyrion delivered ASAP.

I am with Boaz, the Lannister brothers are truly my favs as well. The one truly "good guy" I really enjoy is Samwell. Although I like some of the houses on the fringes, i.e. Martells and Greyjoys as well.

Anyway, Zee, yes Sansa is Alayne and that's why I argued that the returning POV is not Theon but Sansa but my fellow chroniclers through that was lame. I also have said that Sansa will be Littlefinger's downfall and I hope that's truw. There is much yet we have not seen from this former damsell in distress. "You have learned well, young one..."

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

Well TK, yer the one with a penchant for dwarves with mis-matched eyes and web footed prostitutes name Chloe.....not me. So enjoy yer life sized (really? life sized....whats that ? 3 foot?) dwarf poster.

Tyrion is not a good guy....lest you forget he quarrelled his father, had a man beaten so he could have his prostitute, had one man turned into soup to protect his whore, lied a number of times, stole on occassion and plotted against his family...

Oh thats right, he protected Sansa, saved Kings Landing and is rather witty....guess that makes him a good guy.

 

[TK-421]

Ha! He'd go well with my Frodo and Gimli standees...

Sorry, if I mistyped or that I injected a meaning in my post that was never meant to be there.

Yes, I am clearly a Tyrion fan and think he is brilliant character but I never said he was a good guy.

 

[Boaz]

TK, gotta play Devil's Advocate on this one.

I dunno if I'd classify Samwell Tarly as a good guy. Does good guy just mean absence of evil or does good imply being proactive against evil? The only good thing Sam has done is punch Dareon's lights out.

You could argue that he saved Gilly and her unnamed baby. But really, Gilly did more of the saving than Sam... and Sam did not even save the baby! Remember, he was overcome by Meera... worthless.

Sam is a tool. Not a jerk, he's a pawn in the Game. He blabs whatever someone tells him to say. Kinda like Sansa. Yeah, but he brought Maester Aemon's word to the Citadel! He brought it to the wrong people... idiot!

If being a stupid, worthless parrot is being a good guy, then Sam is the hero of the age!

As for Tyrion and Jaime, they want to be good guys... the problem is that they are already bad guys. They'd like to be heroes and save everyone and be congratulated for it... but when their efforts are not recognized they tend to react poorly.

Tyrion told Jon that most people would rather deny hard truths than accept them. Tyrion does an admirable job of this, but he's not perfect. He sees himself as a victim of his father... in many ways this drives him to succeed in other areas. Yet, I think it blinds him to his major character flaw of ingratitude.

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

Oh, upon rereading TK, I see what ya meant. I was gonna send you an official Tyrion Blow-up punching clown doll...but this damn government filter blocks any search that includes Dwarf and blow-up doll. Im kinda glad for that....

Hmm Boaz didnt we argue Sams character somewhere else...? My stance was then and now the same, Sam didnt actually do anything. He allowed others to force him into things. He ran to Jon to save Gilly, accidentally killed the Wight (getting Small Paul killed in the process...) etc....he has absolutely no redeeming qualities I can think of.

Boaz- I actually compare Brienne with Simon the lead character of Memory Sorrow and Thorn.....Simon ends up being quite large, still oafish and pondering, lucks into completing his various quests, and requires extensive help to make do....but if Brienne is what brings you in, by all means come in from the cold bosom of James Clavell and suckle at Georges ample bosom of creativity.

Boy do I know how to turn a phrase....

 

[Boaz]

I could never get into any of Clavell's other writings... Shogun is the exception. He birthed an epic story then and the creative milk for feeding that child fed millions, let me tell you.

<Boaz wipes mouth with back of sleeve.>

So you're saying I plagiarized your thoughts on Sam? Heaven forfend! I merely reserve the option to post as I see fit on a daily basis. If my ideas change from day to day, well that's a Boaz's right. But I don't know how I could have ever argued that Sam has any redeeming qualities... Sam Gamgee, yes.... Sam Tarly, no.

In fact, while you were typing your last post here I was posting on the Tolkien threads regarding Sam. Samwise Gamgee, simpleton or hero?

Edit: This thread has been derailed and taken on a life of it's own. Casey Jones! Watch your speed!

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

No no no...I wasnt saying you plagiarized me. Just the righteous truthiness of my compelling reason brought you to my way of thinking without you even being aware of it. Dont be upset....happens all the time.

Ironically , that same thread you posted above is just about the only one Ive ever posted in over in the Tolkien threads. You people with yer Children of Hurin, and Son of Schmegelmir, and Minas Whosits confuse me. So much stuff....

So anyhow on to theories of conspiracy.....anyone want to hear my Lady Melisandre is working as a force for good but is actually trying to bring about the final battle by getting Stannis possessed by demons theory?

 

[TK-421]

Advocate for the devil all you want, but I think there is something inside Sam that is waiting to come out. He is not a tool or else Jon would of never sent him to Oldtown. And I think we all would agree that Jon is a pretty good judge of character. Sam will find his courage much like Pippin found his.

 

[Boaz]

I think there is something inside Sam that is waiting to come out.

It already came out... over the side of the ship on his way to Braavos.

Actually, I agree with you, TK. Up 'til now Sam can be summed up as... potential.

So can Hodor, Butterbumps and Moon Boy.

 

[TK-421]

HA! Funny but I think you in reality give Sam a little bit more "potential" than Moon Boy. When he forges his links he will have knowledge that will help others (Dany? Jon? Doran? Quentyn? Arellas? Marwyn? Jaqen?...) do great things.

Although, at least Moon Boy has Cersei. The best Sam can do is Gilly.

 

[Zee]

Speaking of Hodor, why can he only say one word? If he's capable of speech he should be able to pronounce other sounds that aren't "Hodor". I'm waiting for him to bust into a long soliloquy in a future book.

Could you imagine a Hodor POV chapter? "Hodor", thought Hodor. "Hodor, hodor hodor".

 

[Boaz]

Zee, check out The secret POV has been revealed.

 

[Zee]

Zee, check out The secret POV has been revealed.

LOL -- now that was funny.

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

I was gonna lambaste Zee for being a joke stealer, then I read the thread Boaz posted and realized he had stolen a joke from me before I had even joined the forum. Thats just plain low....yeah Im looking at you Boaz. Stop portraying my jokes as your own even though I havent thought of them yet.

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