The Cathar heresy

[Patrician]

What do you think about it?

I was first fascinated with them when we learned about them in school. I have recently read a book by Stephen O'Shea called The Perfect Heresy and it really was an enjoyable read. I'm planing to move on to the The Albigensian Crusades by Joseph R. Strayer as O'Shea recommends.
Anybody read it?

 

[Mary Hoffman]

My next historical novel, Troubadour, will feature Cathars and teh Albigensian Crusade.

Whatever you do, don't read Kate Mosse's Labyrinth - truly dreadful.

Mary

 

[Giovanna Clairval]

I didn't read it, but I did read the trilogy written by Michel Peyramaure, La Passion cathare, 1990, historical novel recounting the war of the Albigeois through the eyes of an agnostic freedom fighter.

At the time, the land of Languédoc fought against the French who came from the North and were considered no more than invaders. Religion was only one of the aspects of a struggle supported by a few local nobles who wished to be independent from Paris; very important, but not unique.

I visited almost all the castles the French expugnated: Minerve, Queribus, Termes...

The Cathar heresie stems from the Zoroastrian vision of Good and Evil in perpetual conflict (Ahura-Mazda vs. Ariman).

If God exists, she can't be other thing than good, than she can't have created Evil. Ergo, Evil is something independent from God, another entity that existed before creation.

 

[Ursa major]

My next historical novel, Troubadour, will feature Cathars and teh Albigensian Crusade.

Whatever you do, don't read Kate Mosse's Labyrinth - truly dreadful.

Mary

Last year, a friend of mine who had had (through illness) a lot of time on his hands, lent me five of the books he'd bought. Four were by Dan Brown; the fifth was Kate Mosse's Labyrinth. To cut a long story short, I found Labyrinth to be a far poorer book than the Da Vinci Code (i.e. not at all good), and not a patch on Angels and Demons. (The other two Brown books were worse, but in their defence, neither was presented to the public as a superior read). Labyrinth didn't even have the page-turning pace of Brown's efforts. I was very disappointed; and pleased that I had not wasted good money on it.

 

[Patrician]

Wow, I wasn't aware that so many fiction novels were written based on the Cathar heresy. Sure will try to grabe one.

I visited almost all the castles the French expugnated: Minerve, Queribus, Termes...

Oh, I'm so jealous! I want to see all those places...Minerve where Simon used La Malvoisine, the medieval Big Bertha, Carcassonne, Toulouse, Beziers where Arnold 'Caedite eos' Amaury had them all slaughtered...and above all Montsegur! *sigh*

The person I find as the most cool in the whole Cathar story is Roger Raymond, the count of Foix. If only there were more men like him in Occitania...

 

[Giovanna Clairval]

Oh, I'm so jealous! I want to see all those places...Minerve where Simon used La Malvoisine, the medieval Big Bertha, Carcassonne, Toulouse, Beziers where Arnold 'Caedite eos' Amaury had them all slaughtered...and above all Montsegur! *sigh*

It was the only one I didn't visit. Pity.


Think of the number of people who died during the siege of Béziers! They say two hundred thousand people!

The person I find as the most cool in the whole Cathar story is Roger Raymond, the count of Foix. If only there were more men like him in Occitania...

I agree. I had understood Raymond of Toulouse at first... That one...
But the Foix brothers were all right.

 

[Mary Hoffman]

I first came across the cathrs in Montaillou by Emmanuel LeRoy Ladurie, first translated into English in 1980 and reissued around 2000 I think. The material was fascinating and I kept wishing he - or someone - had written a novel based on it. Well now I AM writing a novel about the Cathars but not that one.


If you look up Montaillou on Amazon you get quite a list of books on thsi subject. They were Manicheans, or dualists, as you say, regarding this world as evil. Their experience of massacre at the hands of the Northern French, who were allowed to confiscate their land and property,could be regarded as a vindication of their world view.
Mary

 

[Giovanna Clairval]

Hi, Mary,

When do you plan on finishing your novel? Does it have a title already?

I called the Northern French "the French" because that is what the Languédociens called them.

They yelled: "Les François arrivent! The François arrivent!"

 

[Patrician]

It was the only one I didn't visit. Pity.


Think of the number of people who died during the siege of Béziers! They say two hundred thousand people!



I agree. I had understood Raymond of Toulouse at first... That one...
But the Foix brothers were all right.

I'm sure you'll visit Montsegur one day. You are in France, it's the same country!

It is a bit confusing with the names since it seems they were all called Raymond, the Languedoc nobles I mean. Speaking of St. Gilles, he strikes me as a man just wanted to enjoy his life but got in the fracases of the time

About Beziers- I thought that the general consensus speaks of aprox. 15-20 thousand people?

 

[Patrician]

I first came across the cathrs in Montaillou by Emmanuel LeRoy Ladurie, first translated into English in 1980 and reissued around 2000 I think. The material was fascinating and I kept wishing he - or someone - had written a novel based on it. Well now I AM writing a novel about the Cathars but not that one.


If you look up Montaillou on Amazon you get quite a list of books on thsi subject. They were Manicheans, or dualists, as you say, regarding this world as evil. Their experience of massacre at the hands of the Northern French, who were allowed to confiscate their land and property,could be regarded as a vindication of their world view.
Mary

Well Mary best of luck with the novel, just let us know when you're finished!

 

[Mary Hoffman]

Oh I will let you know but I haven't started yet! I've written the outline and got the contract and am supposed to deliver "in the Spring" so it will come out in 2009. It will just be called Troubadour and be published by Bloomsbury UK and hopefully USA as well, like the others.

Mary

 

[Patrician]

Just baldly onward! The crys of Cathar martyrs will be heard in your book I am sure of it. Remember, no stoping you!

 

[Giovanna Clairval]

The uprooting of the Cathar heresy


Or


The Crusade of the French to conquer Languedoc.​

EPISODE 1​

Remainder: Two languages developed from Latin, the langue d’oc and the langue d’oïl; both words mean “yes” (“oui” in French), because “yes” was “hoc il est” in Latin. The Northern people, pronouncing “hoc il” very quickly, ended up saying “oïl”.The people of the South said “hoc”.
Therefore, "Languedoc" means “the language of oc”.


The year is 1119, Pope Callixte II goes to Toulouse in person to preach against the heresy, but he can’t do so and must content himself with a few excommunications. The bishop of Toulouse tries to have a few heretics burnt at the stake, but the mob frees the prisoners. The Holy See is worried.

The same sort befalls Bernard de Clairvaux twenty-eight years later. The crowd hisses and boos him. As he preaches in a church near Toulouse, the congregations walks out on him before he has finished.
Bernard walks out in his turn and tries to preach to an empty square. The good people lock themselves up in their houses and knock on their doors so loudly that the preacher’s voice is drowned in the noise.

A council is held in 1167 at Saint-Félix de Caraman, and the Cathars (from Greek catharos, pure) become organised. Raimon (not Raymond) de Toulouse accepts to carry out a perfunctory crusade against his loyal subjects. This crusade is just a delegation of bishops. But the inhabitants of Toulouse get angry. On this occasion Pierre Mauran is judged and condemned to sacred journey to Jerusalem. Pierre Mauran, an elderly man from Toulouse, wealthy and well known—as well as appreciated by the people who nickname him “Saint Jean the Evangelist” comes back three years later to a cheering crowd comprising all the citizens. The people elect him “capitoul”, i.e. he becomes a magistrate, a “notable” in his town.

Rome seems to accept the fact that the Cathar heresy is spreading. That is… until Innocent III is elected pope in 1198. The new Pope does not condone the spreading of Catharism, and sends other legates; one of them is called Pierre de Castelnau, who will soon be known as one of the persecutors of heretics, but, for now, the legates try to persuade a hostile population.

The saint-to-be Dominique de Guzmann will fail in convincing the black sheep through "preaching by practising". The populace will beat him up more than once.


Our Pierre de Castelnau creates a coalition of lords from Languédoc in 1207. His intention is to have Raimon VI (son of Raimon V de Toulouse) accept the leadership, which the new Raimon refuses; Pierre excommunicates him. The pope, Innocent III, calls on the king of France, Philipphe Auguste, to intervene.

Pierre Castelnau sets forth to go see the Pope in Rome, when someone kills him. Raimon VII is accused of being the agent of this murder. The Pope asks Philippe Auguste to lead a crusade. The King refuses, for fear that the King of England, John Sans Terre, could take advantage of his absence to get stronger in the North; nevertheless he gives permission to his vassals to participate in a crusade.

It has begun now, and it won't stop until the South is aflame.

The year is 1209...

TO BE CONTINUED​

 

[Patrician]

The uprooting of the Cathar heresy


Or


The Crusade of the French to conquer Languedoc.​

Interesting, whose book is that from?

 

[Giovanna Clairval]

It's not a book , Pat. It's a pot-pourri of things gleaned on the Internet along with reminiscences of other things I read in books.

But I'll look for references, because those are historical, recorded facts.

And sorry for the typos...

 

[Patrician]

Oh, I see. You don't have to bother with references, I we read pretty much the same.

I used this quotation as a sig on my other forum some time ago, allegedly Domingo, future st. Dominic said these words:

"For several years now I have spoken words of peace to you. I have preached to you; I have besought you with tears. But as the common saying in Spain goes, Where a blessing fails a good thick stick will succed. Now we shall rouse princes and preletes against you; and they, alas, will in their turn assemble whole nations and peoples, and a mighty number will perish by the sword. Towers will fall, walls be razed to the ground, and you will all of you be reduced to servitude. Thus force will prevail where gentle persuasion has failed to do so.

Some saint, ey?

 

[Giovanna Clairval]

I used this quotation as a sig on my other forum some time ago, allegedly Domingo, future st. Dominic said these words:

"[...] Thus force will prevail where gentle persuasion has failed to do so.

Some saint, ey?

Yeah. He was also (allegedly) a masochist. It would seem he did love to get beaten up when his preaching was not so well received. I can't remember where I read it. That's the problem when you don't take notes of what you read... although, in my defence I'll say that I didn't know I'd end up posting on this message board --- a place haunted by so literate people.

In French, Domingo is "Dominique", which is a unisex first name, like "Claude".
Hope I'm not upsetting any Dominic or Cloud
"she laughs at her own pun*

 

[Patrician]

Yeah. He was also (allegedly) a masochist. It would seem he did love to get beaten up when his preaching was not so well received. I can't remember where I read it. That's the problem when you don't take notes of what you read... although, in my defence I'll say that I didn't know I'd end up posting on this message board --- a place haunted by so literate people.

Yes, once while he was deep in cathar lands he encountered a group of peasants who recognized him. They asked him what would he do if they attacked him. This is what he said:

I should beg you not to kill me at one blow, but to tear me limb from limb, that thus my martyrdom might be prolonged; I would like to be a mere limbless trunk, with eyes gouged out, wallowing in my own blood, that I might thereby win a worthier martyr's crown.

They left him alone.

 

[Giovanna Clairval]

They left him alone.

Real sadists, they were.

 

[Sephiroth]

I haven't got any pearls of wisdom to add to this thread atm, but I'm glad it's here. The first time I heard about the Cathars, it made a big impression on my imagination. Interesting discussion.......