The Cathar heresy

[Patrician]

They sell the whole series here(originals!) for some ridiculous bargain price. If need be, I'll send you a copy for christmas to Scotland!

 

[Sephiroth]

Then you certainly have a deal.

 

[Giovanna Clairval]

That's what happens when you leave the boys alone: they talk of games.
I should have posted the third episode of the Crushing of the Albigeois, but I just wrote a lengthy comment on Chaos versus Law in Moorcock's section.

Perhaps, after a ciggy, I can write it.

If the Cathar heresy still holds your attention, I mean.

Men!

 

[Sephiroth]

So that's where you go when I've no idea where you are? Hiding out in the Moorcock section?!

I've never read his work, I assume you would recommend it?

And yes, post more of your saga! It's riveting!

Patrician's gone to his kip, so I promise the man-talk will end.

 

[Giovanna Clairval]

I do recommend Moorcock!

Especially: the first series of Elric, the albinos. I'm sure you would love that character.

I also love the cycle of Corum; I adore the ones at the end of time, with Cornelius.

But Law/Chaos supplanting Good/Evil is a universal theme. You don't need to know the books to follow that discussion. I'd like to know what you think of it.

In the meanwhile, I'll try to put this HISTORICAL thread back into its tracks.

The third episode coming up in half an hour!

 

[Sephiroth]

I'm all for it, since Good/Evil is played-out, IMO, and the best exponents of it are dead, anyway. But shall we take this up elsewhere?

Meanwhile, I shall endeavour to furnish myself with some Moorcock at the first opportunity!

*waits with bated breath*

 

[Ursa major]

I study Dutch as my third language, you know...

* Imagines a school timetable with double Dutch on it. *

Well we have to do something while waiting for all those well-crafted words to arrive from Paris.

 

[Sephiroth]

Oh dear....

That's twice you've made me crease myself in this thread now, UM. Cheers, keep it up!

 

[Giovanna Clairval]

The crushing of the Albigeois​

Episode III​

Dramatis personae : Simon de Monfort; Alix de Monfort; Alienor of Toulouse; Pere (Pierre) II of Aragon “The Catholic”, Alienor’s brother; the Raimons of Toulouse (counts and exiles), Philippe Auguste (Philip the August of France); Louis, son of Philippe (the future Louis VII); Amaury, son of Simon and Alix.

The year it is now 1213, when Alienor of Toulouse –-who is not the famous Alienor who married Henri of England, and died in 1204— calls her brother, Pere (Pierre) II of Aragon to come to the rescue of her battered county.
Pere II of Aragon, nicknamed “the Catholic”, does not approve of the growing ambitions dwelling in the heart of Simon and Alix de Monfort. No one can suspect the very Catholic king, who has just defeated the Saracens, to be a heretic. After an unsuccessful journey to Rome, where he fails to convince Innocent III, the Pope, that the crusade has been hijacked by the social-climbing couple, Pere's army rejoins the defenders of Toulouse. Yet, inexplicably, the outnumbered crusaders exterminate Pere’s warriors, this day of September 13, 1913. To crown this bad luck with numbers, the King himself is killed. Counts Raimon VI and VII of Toulouse flee to England.

The South is drowning in blood, but King Philippe Auguste (Philip the August) is busying himself with the consolidation of his realm. Once this objective achieved, he is the strongest king of Christendom. Three years later, he dispatches his son Louis –who will be known as Louis VII. The future king of France ratifies each decision taken by Simon de Monfort, who can finally enter Toulouse. In 1215, the same year, the Council of Lateran opens in Rome. The southern bishops support Monfort. The lands of Toulouse and Foix are now Simon’s lands.

Simon de Monfort is bathing in his own triumph, when Raimon (son of Raimon VII) disembarks in the port of Marseille and takes back one town, Beaucaire.
Insurrection breaks out in Toulouse. Raimon and his men march towards their dear city, alone against the King of France and the Pope.
Providential fog allows them to penetrate into Toulouse, unbeknown to anyone. They kill all the Frenchmen and conquer the city.

Simon de Monfort catches his death trying to retake Toulouse, the year 1218, on June 25. The Chanson de la Croisade recounts that a woman killed him, hitting him in the head with a stone. He has been known as the Lion of the Crusade and the Soldier of God, and this is how he dies.

The son of Alix and Simon, Amaury, entreats the King of France to help him.

Will the King grant him another army?

 

[Sephiroth]

Woo-hoo! The saga continues!

Ah, the Lateran Council rears its head.......

What is the exact significance of the flag, Giovanna?

 

[Giovanna Clairval]

The cross of Toulouse appears for the first time on Raimon VII's seal, in 1211.

There are several explanations:

1) Raimon VI used a similar cross on his shield when he left for the crusade en Terres Saintes. It would seem that, to attach the cross to the shield, twelve rivets were needed.

2) The cross of Toulouse is a pre-Christian solar symbol (like the swastika, originally a hooked wheel symbolising the rays of the sun, and also its movement and its energy coming from the element Fire, the element that initiates the matter, autrement dit, the strength of the spirit that creates things).

The seven-pointed star is a symbol of the Occitanist party and represents the seven provinces of the traditional Occitanie (without the Gascogne and the Limousin, for instance).

 

[Sephiroth]

Ah, the Limousin, which would include today's Charente, yes? It is the region where my parents live. Certainly, today they consider their Occitan inheritance very important...

Thanks for the explanation!

And for your wonderful narrative...

 

[Giovanna Clairval]

This is just what the Occitanist party claims.
I am in no way supporting their view.
Others consider the Limousin and the Gascogne part of the Occitanie.

The real criterium is not merely geographical; it's the languange that counts. We have bits of Occitanie in Piemont and Ligury, where the Occitan is spoken in a few valley.

Charente is called the door of Occitanie, but it's not in the Limousin, methinks.

Do your parents live there around the year?

 

[Sephiroth]

No, only for about three months, atm, because they are both teachers and can only go there when they are not working; but whenever they are off work, they go there. Saint Adjutory is the name of the village, it's absolutely beautiful.

I am guessing that they must have a linguistic link to the heritage, based upon what I could decipher of the things I read, but it is certainly on the fringe, geographically.

But what a fabulous place.....and the people are so welcoming.....

 

[Giovanna Clairval]

I used to teach too, as a side occupation in an already well-filled life. But I got bored because the only students who understood and participated in the discussions were Germans, Swedes and anything that is not French. My classes were conducted in Anglish, I must say. I was a professor for a few year in Dijon, which is a two-hour journey from Paris by TGV . I stopped teaching three years ago. The train was tiring-- The TGV shakes you and shakes you... Given that my brain is pea-sized, it was tossed around in my skull and I got headaches.

 

[Sephiroth]

Your brain is hardly pea-sized, O Regina Latinae, to be honest, I'm surprised that such a weighty brain fits inside the cranium of a delicate human lady. Didn't they used to say that women were too 'dainty' to be as intelligent as men? If only they were around today.......

I have a story about the TGV, too, but it is slightly less sanitary. Now, those trains are damn smooth compared to the ancient, rickety old things we have here, and as happens on a long journey, I needed to visit la toilette. Normal enough, so far. The problem arose when the darped thing decided to stop suddenly (I daresay it was the driver's decision), and, well, physics took its toll, gravity relaxed its grip. Downwards became upwards, if you catch my drift?

If there hadn't been one of those horrible hand-dryer thingys, I'd have been too mortified to come out of the toilet again until we reached Angoulême.

 

[andyn]

I must say this is an interesting thread. Please do not stop with the historical breakdown of the tragic destruction of the cathars. I personally know very little on the subject, but have become fascinated with the history of the middle ages. Oh and Baldur's gate if your man enough otherwise stick to FF.

 

[Sephiroth]

*bites his tongue*

 

[Giovanna Clairval]

Patrician,

When I said that Alix de Monfort was a "woman-at-war" , it was a joke related to:

man-at-war, medieval term for "soldier"

and also, an afterthought,

man-o'-war, an armed navy ship.

Only a woman can make jokes like that about another woman.

*menacingly* Is that clear?

Sleep, sweet sleep now (six "Es" there, good!)

 

[Patrician]

Giovanna, I see that you are keeping up the good work, very nice writing!

Since you are making a summary of the whole crusade, allow me to fill some parts with little bit more details if you don't mind.

For instance, the inexplicable defeat of king Perre (known to me as Pedro) II of Aragon...

As you said, he did not approve of Simons growing ambitions. Being the man of the match on July 16, 1212. near Las Navas de Tolosa where the Christian army won a crushing victory over the Moors, Perre became an untouchable paladin of the Church, a secular saint. It came as a surprise when he demanded that the crusade in Languedoc be suspended immediately. He confronted Arnold Amaury on that matter, proposing to the pope that he would govern over all lands of Toulouse until Count Raymond's son attains manhood. He argued that Simon had overstepped himself, attacking lands over which Perre was suzerain, not infected with heresy, carving out a kingdom for himself. Perre had in mind a unification of Occitan- and Catalan-speaking lands under one monarch. He didn't like the idea of northern France taking the South...
The pope had written to Simon: "The illustrious king of Aragon complains that, not content with opposing heretics, you have led crusaders against Catholics, that you have shed the blood of innocent men and have wrongfully invaded the lands of his vassals, the counts of Foix and Comminges, Gaston of Bearn, while the king was making war on the Saracens." It was an order to end the crusade.
Amaury wasn't about to let the decade of his work be undone. He retorted that Perre never made any move in confronting heresy in his lands. And Simon had been doing precisely that. His work was not done.
The pope had to choose, between Perre and Simon and Amaury, between law of the land and the law of the Church.
On May 21, 1213. he reinstated the crusade.

The two armies met near Toulouse, at the castle of Muret, lying on the Garrone. Simon has managed to gather some 800-1000 heavy cavalry and about 1200 infantrymen. He was outnumbered approx. 20:1.
It was September 11, 1213, and Simon had made his last will and testament that morning. He was riding to give out to give battle.There was some last minute diplomacy that day but to no avail. The time for talk was over. Simon spend the night with his confessor and Perre with his mistress.
The next morning Perre summoned his council. Count Raymond of Toulouse was the only one who advised caution. Why not fortify their camp and wait for Simon to attack? He was ridiculed and put in charge of the reserve in case of emergency. Perre's plan was simple: he let Simon enter Muret unmolested where he would have to choose between an inevitable defeat in a long siege, or venture out to attack against overwhelming odds. Simon chose to attack. "If we cannot draw them a very long way form their tents, then there's nothing we can do but run." Those were his words, supposedly. The northerners armed themselves and a collective blessing had been given. They were ready for battle.
Simon's cavalry filed out a gate, forming three corps. They rode north of the castle, by the river bank, with Perre and the Occitans to their left. Perre led his cavalry into the plain, dividing it into two groups. Infantry was left behind, so the numbers were now 2:1 in Perre's favor. Simon's cavalry turned left and charged the first corps of the southerners. Stretched into a line, the first corps of Simon's cavalry, led by William of Contres, smashed into the southerners who reacted poorly to the charge. The melee was well under way when the second column of Simon's cavalry led by Bouchard de Marly made the second, decisive blow to the disorganized southerners. They were already dispersing when the second corps of southern cavalry led by king of Aragon appeared. The disciplined crusaders of William and Bouchard re-formed their lines quickly, and charged Perre. (According to the chronicles, Perre changed armor with one of his knights before the battle) As the crusaders were hacking their way to the man wearing the king's armor, Perre revealed himself and shouted in the confusion, "I am the king!" Was it in defiance or admission of defeat we'll never know. He wasn't heard, and was killed.
Back in the southern camp Raymond, never being accused of braver, did nothing to aid the cavalry and the disaster was complete. The news of Perre's death soon spread and the army at the camp started to disintegrate, fleeing in panic. The third crusader corps, Simon's corps, hunted them down some time and then turned on to the citizen soldiery from Toulouse that was before the walls of Muret, harassing the besieged, having heard a fatally false rumor that the Simon's men have been routed by king Perre. I suppose they were somewhat surprised when they saw Simon and his knights bearing down on them. The rest is an epic butchery, the lower estimation speaking of 7000 dead....

And that was the Battle of Muret.

And after lunch, a few quotations from the Council of Lateran...