Moorcock's "Great Themes"

[Connavar]

So i take that as no NO


I like the themes, i dont mind even if it gets too much planes and gods sometimes.

I just found the story more interesting when it was about the strange cruel world a noble creature like Corum had to change and become more evil and human like than the sword rulers or whoever appears later.

My fav part so far is when he got to know some feelings for the first time. "Corum learned anger " and so on.


By the way is Elric more about his world than the gods? I dont mind the gods i just wanna see more of the world.

 

[j d worthington]

So i take that as no NO


I like the themes, i dont mind even if it gets too much planes and gods sometimes.

I just found the story more interesting when it was about the strange cruel world a noble creature like Corum had to change and become more evil and human like than the sword rulers or whoever appears later.

My fav part so far is when he got to know some feelings for the first time. "Corum learned anger " and so on.


By the way is Elric more about his world than the gods? I dont mind the gods i just wanna see more of the world.

Oh, you'll see more of Corum's world later... especially with the second trilogy. You'll also meet one of my favorite Moorcock characters (aside from the Rose and Una Persson)... Prince Gaynor the Damned....

Umm... yes, you do see a lot of Elric's world, and there's some interesting history there, too... I won't go into too much detail, but you find in Stormbringer that some of the odd aspects of the history of Elric's world may be because of the same reasons as the "feeling" of the Earth simulations in The Wrecks of Time (a.k.a. The Rituals of Infinity)....

That's one of the neat things about Moorcock (to me)... you can read each story/series by itself and just enjoy it as such; they're written to be read and enjoyed individually. But if you read a lot of Moorcock, you find all sorts of connections not only plotwise, but also conceptually and philosophically... not surprising, with his fondness for allegory....

EDIT: You know, I'd be very curious to see what you think of the novel The Eternal Champion itself.....

 

[Connavar]

Oh, you'll see more of Corum's world later... especially with the second trilogy. You'll also meet one of my favorite Moorcock characters (aside from the Rose and Una Persson)... Prince Gaynor the Damned....

Umm... yes, you do see a lot of Elric's world, and there's some interesting history there, too... I won't go into too much detail, but you find in Stormbringer that some of the odd aspects of the history of Elric's world may be because of the same reasons as the "feeling" of the Earth simulations in The Wrecks of Time (a.k.a. The Rituals of Infinity)....

That's one of the neat things about Moorcock (to me)... you can read each story/series by itself and just enjoy it as such; they're written to be read and enjoyed individually. But if you read a lot of Moorcock, you find all sorts of connections not only plotwise, but also conceptually and philosophically... not surprising, with his fondness for allegory....

EDIT: You know, I'd be very curious to see what you think of the novel The Eternal Champion itself.....

I saw Eternal Champion in his biblio, wierd even Corum has a book in that series.

I geuss i will see why several of his heroes are called Eternal Champion.

Right now i dont have a clue.

A question will i see whats with name Eternal Champion in Corum series since he is called that by fans ?

Or does that appear in other series like the series called Eternal Champion?

 

[j d worthington]

I saw Eternal Champion in his biblio, wierd even Corum has a book in that series.

I geuss i will see why several of his heroes are called Eternal Champion.

Right now i dont have a clue.

A question will i see whats with name Eternal Champion in Corum series since he is called that by fans ?

Or does that appear in other series like the series called Eternal Champion?

uh-oh....

Hmmm. Okay... Corum is the Eternal Champion... as are Elric, Dorian Hawkmoon, Jerry Cornelius, Konrad Arflane, Sojan, Renark, Erekosë.... In other words, the Eternal Champion is exactly that. He is the Champion, and he is eternal; he has existed since before time, and will exist when time is no more. He is not always human (Elric and Corum are neither of them truly human, for instance), nor is he always male. His purpose is to fight the Eternal War between Law and Chaos, in order to maintain the Balance. Sometimes he fights for one side, sometimes for the other. He is not confined to one world, or even one universe, but appears wherever required throughout the multiverse. Most aspects of the Champion are unaware of being such; Erekosë, on the other hand, remembers all his existences (though not necessarily the details of them). There are times when several aspects of the Champion are brought together for a particular purpose... something which is very dangerous to the stability of the fabric of reality itself (you'll see such an example in the Corum tales, for instance).

In other words... the Corum stories are one smaller subset within the enormously complex overarching cycle of the Eternal Champion, which contains damn' near every piece of fiction (and -- at least thematically -- even some nonfiction) Moorcock has ever written.

However... as I noted earlier, he did write them so that they could be read separately, without having read any of the others, though they do have internal links and references to them... they are just things that you either might not catch, or which may come across as atmosphere, or just a very wonky line now and again (such as the Thing Elric and Rackhir meet with in Elric of Melniboné, which maintains its identity by calling itself "Thing" until dying, when it says "Frank"... this being a reference to Frank Cornelius, brother -- and frequent pain-in-the-neck nemesis of Jerry Cornelius, who was indeed very likely to have a different version of him showing up in another reality that was very much like Thing; as well as to the fact that the first Cornelius tales written were recastings in modern form of the early Elric tales). To those who have read a lot of Moorcock, these can add several more layers, not only with continuity with plot and concept, but can also be symbolic of different things Moorcock is saying with the work.

So... don't worry about not having read the other tales in the Champion cycle; either you'll find yourself looking them up later, or you'll find you don't care for Moorcock. In the latter case, it really doesn't matter; in the former, you'll begin to see the bigger picture on your own....

 

[Connavar]

Wow hehe very complex stuff.

But it will be interesting see the different ECs.

 

[j d worthington]

Well, in its own way, Moorcock's work has become as richly complex and detailed as Tolkien's, but in a different fashion... and also with this added difference: Whereas Tolkien did most of his working out the details of his created world(s) and their implications and history before publishing (in most cases, that is; there are exceptions), Moorcock has published as he's gone along, putting him more in the line of such as James Branch Cabell, whose vision evolved as he went along, until it became an extremely complex structure rich in thought and interpretation.

This is one of the things I find so fascinating about Moorcock's writing: the evolution from quite humble, even simple, beginnings, really, to this enormous, sprawling structure that nonetheless shows deep thought and great insight into and celebration of the human experience in all its vast, multifarious complexity....

 

[Connavar]

He must have quite the imagination then to come up with his ideas.

Im in the end the of the first book where you see Arioch, his views on things and the hole island of his is fascinating.

I must say its shocking to know Moorcock didnt create his hole world before publishing, that he didnt have his created world,history figured out way before he put everything down.

Its actually refereshing, its not often you read authors like that. Atleast not so far for me.

 

[j d worthington]

He must have quite the imagination then to come up with his ideas.

Im in the end the of the first book where you see Arioch, his views on things and the hole island of his is fascinating.

I must say its shocking to know Moorcock didnt create his hole world before publishing, that he didnt have his created world,history figured out way before he put everything down.

Its actually refereshing, its not often you read authors like that. Atleast not so far for me.

From my understanding (and do not take this as gospel, by any means), Moorcock does plot things out, and when it comes to his "created world" for a particular work, he has that planned out (at least in general; some specific details may only be sketched in to begin with, to develop as the story gets written); but... when you do something as sprawling and as convoluted as the Eternal Champion cycle, with its enormous ramifications and various growing philosophical points, then having everything planned ahead very much puts you in a straitjacket, and it shows. A lot of Moorcock is very conscious, but I'd say the heart of his work is often unconscious and comes from within; and this is what gives his work conviction as a whole (individual works may or may not have that, but taken in its entirety, it's definitely there).

 

[Connavar]

From my understanding (and do not take this as gospel, by any means), Moorcock does plot things out, and when it comes to his "created world" for a particular work, he has that planned out (at least in general; some specific details may only be sketched in to begin with, to develop as the story gets written); but... when you do something as sprawling and as convoluted as the Eternal Champion cycle, with its enormous ramifications and various growing philosophical points, then having everything planned ahead very much puts you in a straitjacket, and it shows. A lot of Moorcock is very conscious, but I'd say the heart of his work is often unconscious and comes from within; and this is what gives his work conviction as a whole (individual works may or may not have that, but taken in its entirety, it's definitely there).

I meant the book im reading has so many complex ideas that its alittle surprising that he didnt plan everything beforehand.

But at you say, as reader you can almost see by the way he writes that it does work better for him that way.

 

[Urlik]

Prince Gaynor is a great character

I have a few things about him I'd like to discuss further but I shall leave them until Connavar has finished the chronicles of Corum as the topics are full of spoilers

 

[Jon Sprunk]

Great post. My main exposure to MM was the Elric saga. In particular, I've always been fascinated by the Elric-Yyrkoon (and by extension, the Stormbringer-Mournblade) duality -- that whole two-sides-of-the-same-coin-but-not thing.

 

[j d worthington]

Great post. My main exposure to MM was the Elric saga. In particular, I've always been fascinated by the Elric-Yyrkoon (and by extension, the Stormbringer-Mournblade) duality -- that whole two-sides-of-the-same-coin-but-not thing.

Save for the fact that Yrkoon was seldom quite such a snivelling coward (though he could be, on occasion), one could well say that he was Melniboné's Frank Cornelius to Elric's Jerry....