The tyrell's strength

[Koopa]

i meant grainstock

 

[Werthead]

Yes I was aware they had the largest standing army left. I was commenting more on the sheer freaking numbers present. I deal with personnel numbers all the time, and was aghast at trying to track a million targets on a battlefield at one time. Thats just crazy.

Regardless though I was adding the thought that their infrastructure was virtually untouched by the war as well. Supply depots, mid-level leaders, command chains, supply contingincies, bureaucrats and what not are still intact and in place. thats a scary combo.

Not making fun of your spelling...but what is greinstock?

Erm, it's not a million. 100,000. One hundred thousand (at the upper limit, including peasent levies).

 

[cape_royds]

The Tyrells have a lot of strength, but Mace "the Oaf" Tyrell is notoriously ineffective as a warlord. Loras is brave but arrogant and impulsive. Willas is no warrior. Garlan is gallant, but that's about it.

Randyll Tarly is a forceful commander, but unimaginative and inflexible.

So I think the Tyrell strength is likely to get frittered away, taking a beating from the numerically inferior Ironmen while also getting involved in a clash with their former Lannister allies.

I don't think any Great House in Westeros will be intact by the time Danaerys shows up and the great clash of ice and fire takes place.

 

[Koopa]

Mace was sent to conduct two sieges against Storm's End, it is only normal that he has to starve them out, there is no other way.

Loras had a time-limit against Dragonstone, so it is only normal he acted a bit rash, and reasonable succesful.

Didn't Garlan show cunning when donning Renly's armor, and the attck on Stannis forces seemed to went flawlessly, granted, that probably wasn't so difficult.

Tarly seems to be a good commander. You don't need to be imaginative to be sucesful at what you do.

I am not a Tyrell fan, but to me you are seriously underrating them.

 

[Shacklock]

The Tyrells have a lot of strength, but Mace "the Oaf" Tyrell is notoriously ineffective as a warlord. Loras is brave but arrogant and impulsive. Willas is no warrior. Garlan is gallant, but that's about it.

Randyll Tarly is a forceful commander, but unimaginative and inflexible.

So I think the Tyrell strength is likely to get frittered away, taking a beating from the numerically inferior Ironmen while also getting involved in a clash with their former Lannister allies.

I don't think any Great House in Westeros will be intact by the time Danaerys shows up and the great clash of ice and fire takes place.

But you're forgeting the Queen of Thornes, she probably tells her son what to do, who would then pass such orders on to the others.

 

[Lord_of_the_morning]

yes i agree with Shacklock the queen of thornes is running the show..be it behind curtains or out in the open...she is brilliantly coniving...and yes i do think that the tyrell's will be the strongest force when dany get's to westeroes.....The tyrell's randyll is not a military genius like twin by any means but he is like tywin's brother kevan(might be mispelled) he is not a superb commander but he does his job well...mace i think is an oaf..but the queen of thornes will keep him in check....

 

[Apopas]

The tyrell's randyll is not a military genius like twin by any means but he is like tywin's brother kevan(might be mispelled) he is not a superb commander but he does his job well...mace i think is an oaf..but the queen of thornes will keep him in check....

I can't think Tywin as a military genius. Back in Rhaegar's days he didn't enter in the war but when it was finished, exactly the same as Walder Frey did.

During the battle with the main army of the northern:
a)He was befooled by Robb (a 15 yo boy during his first war) and didn't even imagine that the Young Wolf had split his forces and wasn't with the main army. Even Tyrion wanted to laugh at this failure but couldn't because of the pain of his arm
b)He thought the enemy was far away until he was caught asleep...
c)He placed Tyrion with his savages and sell swords at the left side of his army while the knights and the soldiers at the right. He was sure that the left side will break, the enemy will attack to the brokens and he will encircle them. Well, he was wrong...
d)He won but didn't succeed to catch Bolton, the second most powerful Lord of the North.
Maybe he did other mistakes as well, I don't remember... Seriously, I don't understand why the Lannisters won this battle. Maybe because they had cavalry. All these make me think that if Robb had attacked with whole his forces including his cavalry he would have destroyed poor Tywin's whole power...
Anyway, he then succeeded to win the war because he planed the events with Westerlings, Boltons and the Red Wedding.
In conclusion, he succeeded, finally, to befool Robb but outside of the military events. So he for sure is very cunny but as lord commander doesn't worth a single dragon

Randyll Tarly on the other side led an army that inflicted the only defeat on the rebellious forces of Robert Baratheon at the Battle of Ashford. Who knows if it was an easy victory but with this fact only, we can say that at least he does his job well

 

[Thessaly]

I see Tywin as having more of a political brain than a military one. Not to say he wasn't a capable commander, but I also see men like Randyll Tarly as being 'military men' in the sense that they operate best on a battlefield, whereas I got the impression Tywin was more decisive and effectual at court.

I'm not convinced Mace Tyrell is quite the oaf he is purported to be by the Queen of Thorns (I think it's her who describes him as such, can't remember others doing so) as he has beeen cautious and has successfully kept his army relatively intact (this despite backing Renly first time round), and even if it has been his advisors or bannermen who have had all the ideas, at least Mace has had the sense to listen to them. Either way, the Tyrells are in a pretty healthy position at the moment, but now they're really in the thick of the power struggle, it'll be interesting to see if they can survive once fully immersed in court politics. I hope they can - on re-reading the Tyrells are one of my favourite houses, and I'd like to learn more about how they think and operate.

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

I dont think we need to worry about the military acumen of Mace or Olenna. Clearly Olenna will decide the strategy of a campaign and Randyll Tarly will actually implement it.

Remember when Robb quoted Ned about a commander needing a loud voice more than anything else on the battlefield....(I paraphrase)...thats because the Stark commanders lead on the battlefield and in the warroom. I dont think the Tyrells do it that way, they seem more like to differentiate between the two positions. So Randyll would do all the work while Mace got all the credit, except with the people in the know....like Ned.

 

[dyffeg]

Hey, I know I am over two weeks late in reading / replying, but I just had to say that Boaz's post from 1 Oct simply cracked me up and I laughed like a drain.
BB
Sandra

 

[Raul]

I can't think Tywin as a military genius. Back in Rhaegar's days he didn't enter in the war but when it was finished, exactly the same as Walder Frey did.

During the battle with the main army of the northern:
a)He was befooled by Robb (a 15 yo boy during his first war) and didn't even imagine that the Young Wolf had split his forces and wasn't with the main army. Even Tyrion wanted to laugh at this failure but couldn't because of the pain of his arm
b)He thought the enemy was far away until he was caught asleep...
c)He placed Tyrion with his savages and sell swords at the left side of his army while the knights and the soldiers at the right. He was sure that the left side will break, the enemy will attack to the brokens and he will encircle them. Well, he was wrong...
d)He won but didn't succeed to catch Bolton, the second most powerful Lord of the North.
Maybe he did other mistakes as well, I don't remember... Seriously, I don't understand why the Lannisters won this battle. Maybe because they had cavalry. All these make me think that if Robb had attacked with whole his forces including his cavalry he would have destroyed poor Tywin's whole power...
Anyway, he then succeeded to win the war because he planed the events with Westerlings, Boltons and the Red Wedding.
In conclusion, he succeeded, finally, to befool Robb but outside of the military events. So he for sure is very cunny but as lord commander doesn't worth a single dragon

Randyll Tarly on the other side led an army that inflicted the only defeat on the rebellious forces of Robert Baratheon at the Battle of Ashford. Who knows if it was an easy victory but with this fact only, we can say that at least he does his job well

Apopas, you are completely right, but remember one simple fact, what Tywin knew so long: ''Steel can destroy Man's body, but gold can destroy Man's soul!'' I made it myself!

 

[cape_royds]

Several times in the books, various characters disparage Mace Tyrell's generalship. I think both Tyrion and Stannis do so.

Mace Tyrell is indolent. He doesn't lead from behind--he doesn't lead at all. His mother is a wily intriguer but there's nothing to suggest she knows much about war.

As for Loras at Dragonstone, we don't know exactly what happened there yet--we only have a non-POV second-hand telling of that tale. On the other hand, we have Jaime's assessment of Loras' character as somewhat vain and heedless, much like Jaime himself before his defeat, imprisonment, and maiming. And we all know that pride and impulsiveness were factors in Jaime's defeat at the Whispering Wood.

I wasn't particularly knocking Garlan, but his role at King's Landing consisted mostly of dressing up. Meanwhile, Tywin and Tarly led the hosts.

Tarly: a good battle commander, but not a strategist. He goes where he's told to go and he does what he's told to do. Yes, he does it well, but he lacks the imagination and opportunism of a really good general. For example, Brienne of Tarth is a formidable warrior, but Tarly is too hidebound to make use of unexpected or unconventional resources.

So I repeat my prediction: the Tyrell strength will wither away, and the Rose lands will be ravaged, before Dany arrives.

Regarding Tywin Lannister as a general, note that Robb's best idea is avoiding a battle with Tywin. All the Lannister defeats are of their armies not commanded by Lord Tywin.

Tywin's plan at the Green Fork was a good one--a well-laid trap. The strong performance by Tyrion and his tribesmen was just a pleasant surprise. Bolton escaped a mauling due to his caution.

And don't forget that the plan which shattered the Tully strength in the initial phase of the war was Lord Tywin's. The Tullys were a powerful House with strong armies, but Lord Tywin completely out-generalled the green Edmure.

Lord Tywin is not a natural military genius like the Young Wolf, nor is he an overpowering warlord like Robert Baratheon. He is still a very capable commander.

 

[Apopas]

A commander who is caught asleep and is befooled by an amature guy is not capable at all. What would be the result in that case if Young Wolf with his cavalry, was with Bolton at that time?
Robb avoided to face Tywin because knew that was what Tywin want and thus came up with the better idea to split his forces.

 

[Boaz]

Ap, In Tywin's defence, I don't think he was caught napping. Roose stole a march on him, but Tywin's scouts and outriders still allowed his army time to arm and form up.

If Robb and his cavalry had been with Roose, I'm not sure he'd have caught Tywin napping either. Sure, Robb could have hit Tywin with cav, but Tywin still would have been warned and Robb's cav would not have been enough to carry the day once it was stopped and encircled.

Robb's victories came from using terrain, lighting, and his enemy's lack of scouts to his advantage. These are all good, but I don't know that he'd have had any advantage against Tywin except moving under cover of darkness.

Now I've gone and spoken more than I know about military matters. Egg, help me.

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

Suddenly the universe is back in alignment....I disagree with Kiwi in another thread and Boaz beseeches me to provide wisdom and insight.

Now Im not really sure what we;re arguing here....honestly.....but Ill go ahead and pick a side anyhow.

Theres a difference in tactics and strategy and commanding men.....those are essentially the three points of contention between our various commanders.

Tywin could plan and execute a war for certain. He absolutely understood how best to lead difficult men (ie the Mountain and his band), forge alliances, and execute a campaign (witness his Riverrun campaign before Robb got involved) . He did however drasticly underestimated his opponents. That was his one true failing. There is no forgiving not have scouts in place. I dont even want to talk about how egregious that was.

So the question is....if you had to plan a campaign at this point(this point being about 10 minutes before Tyrion sprouted a quarrel)....who would you put in charge of your strategy? Tarly? Doran? Mace? Tywin? really....in the group of possible commanders Tywin is the most complete package.

 

[devilsgrin]

i agree that Tywin is probably the most complete military/commander package of the Great Lords of Westeros.
As to Mace Tyrell, i doubt he's a oafish as Olenna credits him with. Certainly he wouldn't be Tywin's equal in the mental stakes, but when you have overwhelming forces at your disposal its less necessary.
Olenna's mind is the greatest weapon at the Tyrell's disposal. It is clearly due to her handiwork that their army is unscathed, that their lords have been granted ever richer lands and resources, and that they have, as yet, not lost a battle.
She is at least Tywin's equal, and probably far more dangerous. Littlefinger and Olenna are the truest threats in Westeros.