Invented Languages -- This way lies madness?

[Neil040]

Interesting... I hadn't thought of Irish. Did you base them off of Gaelic-Irish, or just Irish?

Not speaking for Kelpie, but its one and the same really.. when people refer to Irish that means the Gaelic.. there may be a classical as well as a everyday version but I am not sure.. will ask my wife when she is home.. she knows some Irish..

For myself, having lived in Wales as well as Ireland, I would have to say that while both languages are of course very similar.. I always thought that Welsh is not as pleasant to listen to as Irish, which is softer and more flowing generally. Welsh is good sung of course as is Irish but a bit rougher to hear spoken..

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

Right, Irish is Gaelic -- though Gaelic is not always Irish. I just like the look of the Irish better than the Scots version. (I might have preferred the Manx -- who knows? -- but how to come up with a Manx/English, English/Manx dictionary or a Learn to Speak Manx-Gaelic book was beyond me.)

There is a bit of Breton influence in some of the southern names, and there would have been more, but after a long search on the net all I could come up with was an online word list (very brief) and a Breton/English dictionary (which I bought) so inadequate as to hardly be worth the name.

 

[absalom]

Right, Irish is Gaelic -- though Gaelic is not always Irish.

Yes- they are not one and the same, but Irish is certainly Gaelic. I will agree with Brian that Irish is very easy on the ears (my Scot ancestors are spinning in their graves, or roaming their haunts, 'cause I said that- but Scot means Irish in Latin, so the blue lady should go back to her bier...).

If you're going to invent a language I'd suggest basing it, closely, on an existing one. Too hard otherwise. Also, you might read some of the psycholinguistics literature. Stephen (sp?) Pinker has written some books for the layman.

I speak 4 languages well enough to get around in (one of which is non-Indo-European), read a few more, and have a superficial familiarity with another half dozen. I don't think I could invent a convincing language, from whole cloth. Language is one of the most amazing things we do (recognizing faces, and reading emotion in them, is right up there, IMHO)- even the dullest of us is a virtuoso by the time he's three.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

Once a language (or two) has been invented for a fantasy world, how much do you think the author should make use of it in the story?

Should it serve as a basis for names and places, as I used it? There have been complaints in other threads about stories with unpronouncable foreign names.

Should you drop in one or two word examples, every now and again, for flavor? Or will this just drive the readers crazy wondering what the characters are saying?

Should you reserve it for cases where it is clear from the context what the word or phrase means? (For instance, if it's used as a greeting, the reader can surely figure out that whatever else it may mean, it essentially translates to "Hello.")

Should it be used only for some special purpose: for instance in magic spells, or ancient inscriptions, or to describe things for which there are no exact equivalent in our world (a different species, or a third sex).

Ought the author to provide translations in the story itself? In footnotes? In a glossary? Or should he or she leave these things as an intriguing puzzle for readers to figure out, if they happen to be interested in that sort of thing?

Just how far should an author go, in using an invented language within the story?

 

[zorcarepublic]

Well, Im not writing a story on it, but I have a universe which I may pursue that has a race with six genders (gender-male, gender-female and four gender-neutral. One of the neutral genders provides hormones that vastly increases the possibility of conception, while the other three are sexes 'designed' for specific tasks-one is a warrior sex, the second a worker sex and the third is what could be called a social worker/guardian, as the children of a race are looked after in a kibbutz(sp?)-like society. There is even a seventh gender, which combines all aspects of the six genders-they used to be reviled, but now are revered. The names for the sexes are: Fe'Mea, Ma'Lea (female and male respectively), Horma (hormone gender), Marti (warrior), Manu (worker) and Guardi)

 

[Ciuva]

I've tried to invent a language several times, but everytime I learn something new about languages (quite often, since that's what I study), I feel I have to rewrite my grammar. I've thought of giving it up several times, but since I am a perfectionist, I feel I really have to make a real grammar and a fully functional language for the three (!!) sentences I need it for. What a waste of time...
When that is said, the idea of inventing a language I would actually be able to speak, have always fascinated me... But for my part, it has turned into quite an obsession I would have liked to be without.
Usually I base it on/is inspirated by finnish, old norse (don't know what it's really called in English) and the language that preceded old norse. But I use shamelessly from all languages I can find...

 

[chopper]

Rather than go for Welsh, Irish or the Nordic tongues for inspiration, I had a look at Afrikaans - European root, but developed separately over the last couple of centuries. My brain ain't big enough to create an entire language with rules and everything else, and Michael Neil & Brian have pointed out that Tolkien was coming at this from a different angle completely. What I want to create is a kind of "flavour" that readers can understand, pronounce and not go "oh, he's just made that tosh up! How the heck do you say Yldr'pklawrthanonbf without choking?"

Of course the problem is remaining consistent with usage throughout.

 

[Princess Ivy]

Hah! I have enough trouble with English. Why in the world would I try to invent a language?

i'm in complete agreement there!

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

Well, for one thing: because it might give you a better appreciation for English -- what a lovely, logical, flexible, and expressive thing it is.

(At least as compared to the morass in which one finds oneself sinking when inventing a new language!)

 

[Estelthea]

Ah, so I'm not the only one here crazy enough to try this. There are at least three of us.

Four! Like most people I was inspired by Tolkien to think about inventing langauges but I also really love words and started out making character and palce names. I spent the summer of 2000, between school and university, working on a language for my story (I probably should have been outside in the sun instead of making strange noises to see what I could come up with). Since taking up my computer keyboard again recently I've started reviewing the work I did and I'm trying to work on divising a root language from the words I've already made. I want to build a much bigger vocabulary that I have at the moment and try to make it all tie together through the root langauge.

It is rather madness inducing sometimes, especially trying to create words that look different but can be pronounced, and look attractive to, English speakers (sine the story they accompany is written in English). And when someone says "how do you say 'hello'" and I realise I can't remember the word!

 

[An8el]

Why make up a language? As a reader, I appreciate how having a new language reveals the associative thinking patterns of the race/culture involved. It makes me feel the authenticity of the story - that it just isn't what I've read before.

As a writer, I had a dream of how English had evolved in a future world. In it, the English syntax had changed significantly as a pidgin English would. Wrote the dream down and then had a devil of a time alluding to its language use without thinking about the whole language.

One of the things that I wondered as I was writing it was how it would be to think in this language - what assumptions about the nature of the universe and how I'm supposed to act as a member of this culture would I have as a native speaker?

Of course, I haven't finished it - agreed it's a gargantuan task. But because my language is a pidgin version at least I have something to start with.

 

[aurelio]

I added things like ™ and © symbols to my future language in EVE, and even with that, some people complained it was distracting or confusing.

I used it as a visual cue to indicate to the reader what was genetically designed, or a biological commodity and what was not, with the idea that it evolved naturally out of the existing language. To me, it was similar to seeing storefront signs now with "Luggage.com" or some such thing, because the dot com has evolved to be shorthand for "available on line" in advertising rather than just part of an URL.

But, as I say, even with my simple tweak of familiar language in a fairly logical way, some readers said they struggled with it. If one is too inventive with the lingo, I think you run a risk of people checking out. I still like what I did and feel it basically worked, but I recommend caution.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

Well, there's the problem, isn't it: how much is too much, when it comes to invented or "evolved" languages? What delights one reader will put off another. Your additions to the language sound delightful to me, Aurelio -- though it's possible I might feel differently after pages and pages of it.

In "The Hidden Stars" they set all my invented-language spells that were in verse form in a different and otherwise beautiful font which nevertheless I thought hard to read and distracting. (Not that people could actually read and understand the words anyway, but I hope you take my meaning.) And even though I asked, it was too late to change it.

No one has complained, but I don't know if that means that nobody else was bothered by the lettering, or whether they just skipped over all that stuff anyway so it didn't matter. (They might even have taken it as a handy cue: Skim over this. It's more of that invented language nonsense.)

 

[aurelio]

It's interesting that you mention font, Kelpie, because I had some areas of my book where I indicated a different font, and my friend/editor told me to remove them. I was reluctant to (though in the end I relented), although I could actually envision an entire book where every character has its own font and to me, that would be fun, but to others, perhaps a visual nightmare. (I still want to try it someday, if only to amuse myself. )

The use of a font change in your book sounds fully appropriate to me, especially if its specific to incantations. The font change helps indicate a different voice or intonation for the reader. That's my two cents.

But if even font changes can potentially break a reader's flow, then invented language seems even tougher to make work. On the other side however, one doesn't want to simply pander to the lowest common denominator at the expense of one's own creative vision, and there are still readers who actually LIKE the novelty of it. It's also a way to move what you write from the ordinary world to the extraodinary. Hmmm.

Why, It's... it's madness! (or at least confusing the heck out of me.)

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

Yes indeed, madness is definitely the word.

In my own case, I was in favor of the font change in principle, but the style they chose was a little difficult to read. I do love calligraphy and fancy alphabets, though. If it was up to me, I'd probably fill up my hard drive with different fonts.

You make a good point, An8el, that language shapes our thought processes, and culture shapes our languages. I tried to keep that in mind when inventing my own language (whose vocabulary runs rather heavily toward magic, alchemy, and natural philosophy).

 

[aurelio]

Selecting a legible font is important, Kelpie, so I understand your concern. Maybe it can be readdressed in a future edition, although if people haven't complained then I'd guess it's not distracting your readers.

My problem is I have spend a good portion of my life doing artwork, some of which includs text as part of the graphic, so I fall into the habit of seeing the text as a graphic rather than simply text. (I'm one of those people that wants to put fancy or unusual fonts on something to play off of the theme or tone of the piece before I send it out - a big no-no with potential publishers, so I'm told.)

I have to let go of the habit and simply trust the writing.

As a writer, I had a dream of how English had evolved in a future world. In it, the English syntax had changed significantly as a pidgin English would. Wrote the dream down and then had a devil of a time alluding to its language use without thinking about the whole language.

One of the things that I wondered as I was writing it was how it would be to think in this language - what assumptions about the nature of the universe and how I'm supposed to act as a member of this culture would I have as a native speaker?

An8el - your dream made me think of Margaret Atwood's Oryx & Crake . In it, she does some of what you were thinking. Her book is a bit confusing at times, but more confusing is that she assumes her readers know some rather specific experiments and events in genetic engineering. I'm pretty up on that stuff, but she lost me on a few things and I had to look them up.

For example, she assumes everyone knows what a "pigoon" is. (It's the actual scientific name they have given experimental pigs that contain some human genes - these exist in labs now). She assumes everyone knows this. I hadn't heard the term, and there were some other similar ones I had to look up. Although I thought it was a cool idea for her to do this, she didn't really write it in a way that those unfamiliar with these experiments could easily get. It made the book a hard read.

 

[An8el]

Keppie writes:

You make a good point, An8el, that language shapes our thought processes, and culture shapes our languages.

Thanks, that was well put, Kelpie. Thanks for the book title, Arelio - I'll check it out.

Speaking of fonts - culture also shapes our sense of artistic symbolism. Just try out understanding the wild cultural differences by reading -say- the I Ching from ancient Chinese culture.

Fonts symbolically "mean" something with their supposed emotional/artistic effect on people. For instance, serifs (the fonts with little tags on the edges of the letters) are "respectable." Rounded fonts without serifs are "friendly." Written fonts say "personal" or "fast." Squarish fonts such as this one we type in say "obvious," but the font that the post turns into is even more "simple."

It's no wonder editors don't like to experience a writer's "taste" in fonts. People most often select a "favorite" font without thinking about the culturally symbolic effect it actually has. Knowing what symbolic effect a font will have on the reader is what graphic artists who design the book jackets are supposed to know - not the author's field, supposedly. I used to design logos while I worked as a signpainter. People often think a choice of font is a "opinion" and its all about who has a right to get their opinion be the choice. I usually had to be pulling rank when I would infer that my choice of font for a sign was backed up by the fact that it was my business to know fonts and what they communicated.

I wondered how these symbolic differences are made up of which specific associative discernments. Associative - for instance, meaning why people in our culture would follow a particular thought with its "obvious" implied opposite or apply another consistent cultural match or expectation. Just think about how many other such things like this that we take for granted in our language contexts.

I read a cool book that helped me build "scenes of context" when I would write from another reality/culture's point of view from the Artificial Intelligence field. Sometimes when you cross genres, you make very interesting observations applied to your work.
Here's a review of that book, and you'll see what I mean:
http://www.cut-the-knot.com/books/connoisseur/flaps.shtml

 

[L'Aile]

Should've read this thread before I posted my thread on The Hidden Stars! (Sorry, Kelpie, to duplicate questions!)
My own 2 cents--take 'em or leave 'em... I approach all of this with a background in linguistics (earned my BA), and I have to admit that I found myself arguing with my professors all the time--do we really think in terms of words, and sentence structure, or do we think in terms of concepts linked with emotion? Learning more than a couple of languages really does influence our thought processes--have you ever had a dream in a language other than your native tongue? Telll me your experience. For me, it is almost surreal, and makes your realize-- perhaps your thoughts aren't as connected to "language" as you once believed...
That being said, and in response to Kelpie, and her language relying heavily towards a lexicon that favors words for magic and alchemy, well--look at the Eskimos. They have something like 20 different words for "snow", each one describes a variation--and that blows my mind.
I might take up the enormous task, and try to invent my own language, one of these days. In the meantime, I have my work cut out for me..trying to provide IPA transcriptions for all my characters' names...and draw my map. I am not a cartographer!

 

[Leto]

Learning more than a couple of languages really does influence our thought processes--have you ever had a dream in a language other than your native tongue? Telll me your experience. For me, it is almost surreal, and makes your realize-- perhaps your thoughts aren't as connected to "language" as you once believed...

On personal background, I'm fluent (both writing and talking) in two languages, is able to understand and be understood even on quite complex topic in 3 more , and have notions (enough to ask my road when travelling or the price of something) in another three. Yet, I'm not sure my thought process has changed greatly mainly because, except 2 of the 3 I have notions in, all the others are indo-europeans languages (french, english, italian, spanish, occitan, lombardian, portuguese). The only difference I've notice is that I tend to be more direct and harsh using english. I'm more easygoing in french and italian.

I usually dream in french, english or a mix between italian, occitan, and lombardian, depending on the location of my dreams. Or maybe I think I dream in this languages ? Strangely, when I dream I speak a language I don't know (morpokian for example, don't ask why), I use english as the foreign language.

And no, I won't try to invent another language, except for the few word describing something that don't exist yet.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

Not at all, L'Aile -- if you hadn't asked I wouldn't have known you were interested in languages or been able to direct you to this thread. Now that we all know you have a BA in linguistics, it's likely that those of us who have been reckless enough to try the invented language thing without the necessary background will be asking you questions from time to time. Prepare yourself to become a Valuable Resource to the linguistically disadvantaged.

My next challenge will probably be invented an alphabet to go with my language. I've referenced it in the book, and probably sooner or later someone will ask to see it.

I'd love to hear what anyone who has gone to the lengths of inventing an alphabet regards as the challenges, the pitfalls, and (if any) the best resources.