A Game of Thrones

[viZion]

But we'll have to hear more about his "mistakes" from you Viz. If only so I can take notes and prepare for your 18th post.

Why wait? If you can show me an argument that's well thought out and backed up by evidence I'll listen to what you have to say, of course. Anything to help me make sense of the mess that Ned creates.

Trusting Littlefinger? Who didn't see that betrayal coming from 3 miles away? Apparently Ned didn't. Don't tell me that Ned trusts Littlefinger "for the love he bore Lady Catelyn". Did he forget the part where his brother humiliates Littlefinger and that Littlefinger is a vindictive jerk? Maybe Ned isn't as smart as I give him credit for.

You know I guess it could be argued that Ned sucks at The Game of Thrones because he's been stuck in the north all his life. I just don't think it's a good excuse. He came down and stood against Aerys and presumably was heavily involved in the politics surrounding that entire war. He seriously can't be this stupid. Tell me why everything he did makes perfect sense. Link me to your previous posts if you must.

 

[Boaz]

It's not a matter of correcting your vision, it's a matter of being polite to our new friends. Egg and I can call each other idiots and we can both take it in the right spirit. After eighteen posts, I guess you're judged to have learned how to take some ribbing.

Egg does need to do some research and provide you the links to the arguments for the pros and cons of Ned's honor, Ned's abilities, and Ned's motivations. But what the heck, I'll start rehashing this now...

Was Eddard a good guy? Absolutely.

Did he try to live so that he could live with a clean conscience? Yes.

But with the incredibly high stakes, why did he warn Cersei? I can see him feeling like he was forced to ally with Littlefinger. I can see him trusting to Renly's and Barristan's loyalty to Robert. I can see him not trusting Varys. But trustig Cersei's conscience was wrong.

Stannis fled to Dragonstone and starting arming himself when he realized Cersei's treachery... and that was when Robert was alive. Stannis has his own blind spots, but Cersei is not one of them.

In a perfect world, Ned's ways work. In Westeros, Ned's ways get him and his family killed.

Eddard is comparable to Leto Atreides in Dune. Both are conscientious, capable, and clear headed men. Both inspired loyalty and respect in their families, friends, and followers. And both died early. Neither was ready to stoop to the level of their enemies... face it, the Lannisters and the Harkonens fight nasty... and they cheat at every turn.

The Bible admonishes us to be wise as serpents and innocent as doves. To me this means to understand your enemies thoroughly but not to commit evil in opposing them. I know this is easier said than done. Ned was wise as a parrot and innocent as a dove. It seems that Sansa and Robb followed his example. Jon is wiser. But Arya is wise as a serpent and innocent as a demon.

 

[viZion]

I'd like to waive my right to the 18 posts thing. This isn't my first rodeo. I really need another perspective on this. He should have allied with Renly when Renly offered. He's got to trust Renly more than Littlefinger. Out of all the people in King's Landing, Littlefinger is probably the least trustworthy but there goes Ned trying to form an alliance. Well, I guess if he trusted Cersei to leave without a fight then anything is possible.

I think my main point is that it seems unbelievable for Martin to write Ned acting in this manner. This time through I'm thinking he makes these obviously horrible mistakes more to push the plot rather to keep to his character. He's honorable but not an idiot. I'm just having a lot of trouble believing it all right now.

 

[Shacklock]

I'd like to waive my right to the 18 posts thing. This isn't my first rodeo. I really need another perspective on this. He should have allied with Renly when Renly offered. He's got to trust Renly more than Littlefinger. Out of all the people in King's Landing, Littlefinger is probably the least trustworthy but there goes Ned trying to form an alliance. Well, I guess if he trusted Cersei to leave without a fight then anything is possible.

I think my main point is that it seems unbelievable for Martin to write Ned acting in this manner. This time through I'm thinking he makes these obviously horrible mistakes more to push the plot rather to keep to his character. He's honorable but not an idiot. I'm just having a lot of trouble believing it all right now.

Well, obviously Ned expected Cersei to act more like your usual Westerosi woman, wheras she is much bolder than that.

 

[viZion]

Well, obviously Ned expected Cersei to act more like your usual Westerosi woman, wheras she is much bolder than that.

Again, I can't believe this. Yes, Cersei is much bolder and more ambitious than your typical person. But Ned knows this. It's not like he's blind to the fact that Cersei is pure evil. That's why I find it unbelievable for him to act the way he did. Martin seems to treat him as completely blind to any and all political intrigues.

 

[Shacklock]

Again, I can't believe this. Yes, Cersei is much bolder and more ambitious than your typical person. But Ned knows this. It's not like he's blind to the fact that Cersei is pure evil. That's why I find it unbelievable for him to act the way he did. Martin seems to treat him as completely blind to any and all political intrigues.

Well as to that, I have to agree with you. But in his defence, the North seems completly free of political intrigue. Besides prehaps Bolton being a bit sly. They're all open honest people.

 

[Rhaegal]

I think my main point is that it seems unbelievable for Martin to write Ned acting in this manner. This time through I'm thinking he makes these obviously horrible mistakes more to push the plot rather to keep to his character. He's honorable but not an idiot. I'm just having a lot of trouble believing it all right now.

I think you may be giving him too hard a time. From Neds point of view. Cersei without any prior planning would have to basically stage a coup in a matter of days without leaving a trace that she was the one responsible. Even then, he had sent a letter to Stannis who would be able to reveal the truth. It isn't like anything she would be able to do would prevent the people who knew from revealing the evidence for all to see. Was it really so naïve to think that she would not be able to overthrow the government on a whim and have everyone just go along?


Maybe I have to reread that section but I had thought she only succeeded because she had everything in place to respond to the threat Edd posed well before he even posed that threat and he never knew that she already was planning to kill robert? Also, she got pretty lucky with the boar. If she hatched 10 similar plots she might expect one of them to work, but if he hadn't been mortally wounded she likely would never have gotten another chance.

 

[Boaz]

Cersei understood that Littlefinger would go along with her instead of going with Eddard. She knew that Littlefinger had a price and that she could meet it while Eddard could not.

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

I think theres two keys to this whole argument that are missed by the masses....1) Littlefinger betrayed Ned, he thought he knew the measure of the man when he didnt. Regardless though it wasnt Cersei he underestimated. It was Littlefinger. 2) Sansa betrayed Ned. She was the one who went to Cersei, revealed that Ned was moving against her, prompting Cerseis actions. Truthfully, I think he may have been able to take Cersei unaware (even with the forewarning earlier....) if Sansa had kept her mouth shut.

So my questions are...who saw the Sansa betrayal coming? and...other than warning Cersei (which was a glaring error of character on his part...not George's) where did he make a mistake. Trusting Littlefinger was his only recourse at that point in time. He should have sealed the man to him tighter, and bypassing Renly was yet another point of character because Robert wasnt dead. It is a measure of the mans love for his friend that he didnt. Maybe if Renly had the character Ned did he would have stood by his side at the end and things would have worked out different.

Im not going to defend the Cersei forewarning, Wert did and I still disagree with him....and Im not going to search for that thread. We can all just rehash it and make things more enjoyable

 

[viZion]

Also, she got pretty lucky with the boar. If she hatched 10 similar plots she might expect one of them to work, but if he hadn't been mortally wounded she likely would never have gotten another chance.

Actually, not really. Remember it was Lancel (who, if I remember right, we find out in later books is sleeping with Cersei and is certainly hopelessly devoted to her) who kept serving Robert wine knowing that he couldn't refuse the win nor refuse to face down the boar on his own. Robert wore his heart on his sleeve. He's very transparent. He's just a plain warrior who became king so he was extremely easy to manipulate. The odds were high that the boar would hurt him. And besides, you can imagine Cersei certainly had backup plans in case Robert didn't get hurt.

I'll admit that I never saw the Sansa betrayal coming and the first time I read the books I hated Sansa for it. However, I do think Ned *should* have seen the betrayal coming from Littlefinger. I mean this is a man with a terrible history with the Starks. First the Starks "steal" (in his eyes) his love and then Brandon humiliates him. He had wanted revenge and Ned should have seen it coming. Should have. Littlefinger even tells Ned to expect it!

Oh well, I still think the writing there by Martin is just a shade bit sketchy and an overtly obvious way to get the wars that are the center of the series started. I wish it had happened different but what can you do? It's still my favorite series of all time and certainly the only I've ever bothered to read more than once. I look forward to future discussions with you all.

 

[viZion]

Sorry for the double post but I just finished Eddard XV where Varys comes to him in his dungeon cell. A few things stood out for me. First, boar or not, Robert was never coming back from that hunting trip alive. Only his extraordinary constitution kept him alive long enough to return to King's Landing in the first place. Anyway, here's the quote:

The eunuch shrugged. "A hunter lives a perilous life. If the boar had not done for Robert, it would have been a fall from a horse, the bite of a wood adder, an arrow gone astray..."

So maybe Cersei got lucky that the boar killed Robert but she had already been creating her own luck in a myriad of different ways. He was a dead man the moment he left on his hunting trip.

Also, you guys might find this stupid but it appears the Targaryens are still in the castle.

Varys: "Rhaenys was a child, too. Prince Rhaegar's daughter. A precious little thing, younger than your girls. She had a small black kitten she called Balerion, did you know? I always wondered what happened to him."

Rhaenys' cat is, of course, none other than the black tomcat that Arya was chasing through the keep earlier in the book. The one the guards claim has been there as long as they can remember("Older than sin and twice as mean"). I just thought that was a nice little connection made by Martin as well as a possible bit of foreshadowing Daenerys' return.

 

[chopper]

Rhaenys' cat is, of course, none other than the black tomcat that Arya was chasing through the keep earlier in the book.

Ah, nicely spotted, sir!

The devil is in the detail...

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

Oh well, I still think the writing there by Martin is just a shade bit sketchy and an overtly obvious way to get the wars that are the center of the series started. I wish it had happened different but what can you do? It's still my favorite series of all time and certainly the only I've ever bothered to read more than once. I look forward to future discussions with you all.

This is the part that I have a problem with.

For Ned it was completely in character to not wage war on children. In fact his going to Cersei was foreshadowed by his argument with Robert over Dany. Some people are made of different stuff than you and think differently. But to call the writing ham-fisted because you find something incongrous is not appropriate. Ill accept it was stupid to go to Cersei, but cleverly stupid on Martins part to have a character who would go.

There were so many other ways to kill of Ned at the hands of the Lannisters that Martin deliberately chose this one. So to imply he just kinda shrugged his shoulders and got on with the war seems silly.

As for "the Starks should be better at politics" angle....well I dont want to give away why Ned was Lord of Winterfell and not his older brother (or his father for that matter) but they have a long history of being nobler than was good for them.

Good catch on the cat Viz....the only bit of info I found on my reread was this passage in Danys first chapter...Ill cut out the parts that dont pertain...


"Yet sometimes Dany could picture the way it had been, so often had her brother told her stories....Her brother Rhaegar battling the Usurper in the bloody waters of the Trident and dying for the woman he loved....Princess Elia of Dorne pleading for mercy as Rhaegar's heir was ripped from her breast and murdered before her eyes..."

Seems like an odd way to word things. Almost as if the woman Rhaegar loved and his lady-wife were two different people. He wasnt fighting for Elia at the Ruby Ford, she was miles away. In fact the war was started over a different woman entirely wasnt it?

It was all right there in front of us and we missed it....in the third chapter.

 

[Tysha]

I like the idea about the cat, but a 15 years old cat is quite old and should not be that hard to catch... Well, "has been there as long as they can remember" is quite convincing

viZion - This is the beauty of these books. You like this character and dislike that one, you agree with one and disagree with another, BUT, all of them are real! Even if you can't understand why a character makes a bad choice - the same thing happens in the real life - if you look around you will find a lot of people doing something that you never will, making bad choices because of a short temper, honor, or just a headache.
And about: "the Starks should be better at politics" Look at the real politics, if they can be bad at politics why should a Lord of some distant quiet place be good at King's Landing intrigues..?

 

[viZion]

As for "the Starks should be better at politics" angle....well I dont want to give away why Ned was Lord of Winterfell and not his older brother (or his father for that matter) but they have a long history of being nobler than was good for them.

What do you mean here? Just to remind you that this isn't my first time through the books. Unless this is a spoiler free thread (doesn't appear that way) feel free to spoil stuff that happens later on. I keep fearing that I'm going to miss something. It's hard to keep track of some things when he tells bits of the background story hundreds of pages apart. Already there are quite a few things I feel like I should know but I don't know if I just haven't reached the parts where they are revealed or if I just happened to miss it while reading.

For example, I think Lyanna was who the Kingsguard was protecting at the Tower of Joy? Where does Ashara Dayne fit into this? Is Jon really the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar? Eddard tells Catelyn, "He is my blood, and that is all you need know" when she asks Eddard who Jon's mother is. Kind of an odd way to word things. These are the kinds of questions I'm asking myself but I'm not sure if I should know the answers already or not. Probably a discussion for another thread anyway.

A little more on topic @ Aegon: I do believe the war was started over Lyanna but again it's one of those topics that Martin drops hints at hundreds of pages apart and it's hard to piece it together. Already I feel like I missed something or maybe he just hasn't revealed what I'm missing.

 

[Boaz]

Is Jon really the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar? Eddard tells Catelyn, "He is my blood, and that is all you need know"... Probably a discussion for another thread anyway.

Do a little spelunking here and you'll find spoilers and postulations to no end.

Egg, great points on Sansa and Littlefinger. Littlefinger had been waiting for an opportunity to harm the Starks for fifteen years... what honorable man would have seen that one coming?

For the sake of argument, would not Sansa's betrayal still reflect upon Eddard since he was responsible for her training?

 

[viZion]

I tried the spelunking but the search here is terrible. Or I just suck at using it. Anyway, I'm pretty convinced that Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's son. My only regret is that Catelyn doesn't "live" to see Jon revealed for what he truly is. I would love to see the look on her face after finding out what Ned did to keep his honor to his sister and that she really had no reason to hate Jon for all those years. Like many other people, I can't stand Catelyn.

 

[Rhaegal]

So maybe Cersei got lucky that the boar killed Robert but she had already been creating her own luck in a myriad of different ways. He was a dead man the moment he left on his hunting trip.

The Varys quote is a good one i'll admit, but the uncertainty was the crux of my point. Sure a stray arrow might kill him or a boar if he had had too much to drink, but I would consider those chancy at best especially if you were trying to make it look like an accident and you would only likely get the one shot. The boar might have just broke his leg. Then Robert is rushed back to the maesters(and Ned) and the whole scheme is shot and Cersei loses a head.


Basically, there is something spectacularly wrong with what you would expect normal protections to be if killing the king is that easy. If it wasn't next to impossible, it at least should have been. I guess I just read it that by the time Ned got there, the whole thing was basically hopeless. All the schemers were already in their end game

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

Brandon Stark and his father went south to demand the release of Lyanna Stark from an insane king. Thats not good politics. So one was horribly burned to death and the other had a choice between letting the burnee die or asphyxiating himself. Not a good decision to go south, but truth be told not an unnoble one.

Cersei apparently hatched more than one plan to kill Robert. Witness the melee Robert avoided at the Hands tourney. Apparently she manipulated Robert into that, so the boar was just a possibility that finally did Robert in. Not too far-fetched

The war was started over Lyanna....in a nutshell, Lyanna and Rhaegar rode off together after Lord Whets tourney. The two elder Starks went south believing shed been abducted and demanded her release, the mad king killed them and demanded Robert and Ned to show themselves in his court. Jon Arryn who was fostering the two at the time took up arms along with the Stark bannermen and Baratheons and went to war....theres more to it but thats the gist of it.

 

[Boaz]

Like many other people, I can't stand Catelyn.

You say the most endearing things!

Welcome Rhaegal!

Robert's relationship to Cersei and the Lannisters was like that of a moth and a flame. Robert loved the shiny toys, the good food, the enless line of drinks, and the countless women ready to sleep with the king. Sooner or later the Lannisters would get him without much effort on their part.

Actually it was probably fairly hard work for Cersei to keep Jaime from killing Robert earlier.