Question re copyrights and stuff

[Kissmequick]

Well his critiques have been extremely helpful tbh. I've got to know him a little bit in our e-mails and the forums we both post on. He's always come across as a decent chap ( even on the sites where every other post is a flame or incitement to something nasty, he was always a poster worth reading for his fairmindedness and geniality)


Nobody has read the end of the book except myself, and tbh I'd really like his input as to whether it lives up to expectations. ofc I'm flattered he asked, but there is more of a * I want to know what he thinks* feel to it. He's A1 my target audience, and it was his critiques that persuaded me I wasn't completely hopeless, even while it pointed out where I could improve.

 

[Ursa major]

As an aside, it is sometimes misleading to think of the actions of others in terms of what financial gain they may derive from their activities. Some people simply like to humilate others; I'm thinking of those people who broadcast private mails, etc.

But if you do think this way, you're not alone. I once read a very learnèd report (book-length) on all aspects of data that stated that if you could make it impossible (or very difficult) for a hacker or data-intruder to make money from breaking into a system, you had solved your security problems.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

Only you can decide whether you know him well enough and if his comments are likely to be valuable enough.

 

[Ursa major]

Nobody has read the end of the book except myself, and tbh I'd really like his input as to whether it lives up to expectations. ofc I'm flattered he asked, but there is more of a * I want to know what he thinks* feel to it. He's A1 my target audience, and it was his critiques that persuaded me I wasn't completely hopeless, even while it pointed out where I could improve.

To protect yourself, you could try to send excerpts, I suppose. But you shouldn't treat him as The Reader; for one thing, he's only one person. For another, he's the least likely person to buy your book: he'll have read it for free.

You must have your own doubts about sending the whole book, or you wouldn't be asking what we think about it. It would be best to be cautious.

 

[Kissmequick]

Only you can decide whether you know him well enough and if his comments are likely to be valuable enough.

*sigh*

I know - the trouble is I'm an eternal optimist in everything but my writing, and it gets me into trouble at times...

And in my writing I'm my own worst critic, which is why I want an objective view from someone who doesn't know me ( and will therefore say *it's great* so as not to upset me, even if I ask them to be honest I can't be sure they are)

edit: he's not THE reader, just one. all the others helped a lot, but this guy really was something else.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

If he's had a lot to do with shaping the manuscript he may have a sense of ownership -- not in the sense of feeling justified in ripping you off, but in the sense that he is no longer as unbiased a reader as he was before. If you've followed many of his suggestions, he is likely (in all sincerity, but not necessarily impartially) to be charmed by those parts. In short, he may have become invested in portions of the manuscript in much the same way you are. (Over many years working with different critique groups, I never heard anyone say, "Oh my gosh, I see now that I gave you very bad advice. I wish you hadn't followed it.")

This is one reason why it's a good idea to join a writers group and have several people critique the entire manuscript as you work on it -- different people will "own" different parts, and can maintain the necessary distance toward all the rest. (Also, you know where they live.)

Again, only you know if his influence over your writing has been such that there is a danger he might have become a fond godfather to the project, instead of the impartial reader he was before.

 

[Kissmequick]

hmm

as I say he is only one of several readers. He hasn't been overlly fond of any one part as such, and there haven't been major changes, at least structurally. He's certainly never recommended *put this in here* or any such, just a general why this part isn't so good, or that part is. ( ie - chapter two is slow, need to tighten that up and take out the exposition that snuck in there while I wasn't looking) He comes across as just eager to know what happens at the end tbh.

 

[iansales]

I, personally, would be wary about sending an electronic file of an entire book to someone I didn't know very well, someone who hadn't a professional reputation to maintain.

That happens on a frequent basis in online writing workshops. Not only is your fiction "published" - and not always behind a password - but total strangers get to download copies for themselves. What assurances do you have that those people are who they say they are? And, to make matters worse, you know they're as keen to be published as you are.

But... guess what? Plagiarism doesn't happen. Or happens so infrequently it's never mentioned.

To be honest, Kissmequick, from your comments any feedback you get from bloke this is going to be so useful enough that it's not worth worrying about the incredibly remote possibility that he might rip you off. And he's not likely to. Do you know why? Because if he's interested in reading and commenting your own ms, then he too is likely a writer. And he might well ask the same favour of you.

I've come across unpublished writers keeping their manuscripts secret from everyone except editors and agents before, and I've never understood it. I know of a couple of authors who were published as a result of others reading their unpublished novels. Those readers created a buzz... which eventually reached the ears of an editor...

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

But, Ian, there's a difference between hiding a manuscript from everybody and sending the entire thing to someone you don't know at all. I would never recommend the former. In fact, I did recommend joining a writers group.


Kissmequick, it sounds to me like you already know what you want to do, you just want reassurance that you are doing the right thing. But you are the one with all of the information, and everything to gain or lose.

I know of a couple of authors who were published as a result of others reading their unpublished novels. Those readers created a buzz... which eventually reached the ears of an editor.

This actually happened to me with one of my books, because a writer friend who had seen my partial a few years before was working (briefly) as an editorial assistant at Avon. But I wouldn't use that as an example of why it's a good idea to show your work to strangers; she was someone I had known for years.

 

[Commonmind]

Commonmind,

Risk is a combination of likelihood and consequence. That's why we insure our houses: not because we believe our house will, for instance, burn down during the term of the policy, but because of the loss we would sustain if it did.

If the consequences of your work being posted somewhere public are very bad, why would you risk it? If there are no adverse consequences, then you could happily send your "baby" to whoever asks for it, within reason.

A good point. However, there are far more instances of houses being damaged through fire, weather events and theft than there are examples of individuals stealing manuscripts for personal gain - or, as you stated, to debase or humiliate the author of the work (though I'm not sure how anyone would go about the latter).

Again, the odds are slim, and that was my point.

 

[iansales]

But, Ian, there's a difference between hiding a manuscript from everybody and sending the entire thing to someone you don't know at all. I would never recommend the former. In fact, I did recommend joining a writers group.

But, Teresa, sending the ms to a writers' group is effectively sending it to someone you don't know at all

I knew someone who would send a copy of everything he wrote to the Library of Congress, because he thought that was how you copyrighted your work. I suspect they threw them in the bin...

 

[Culhwch]

I believe Teresa's advice was to join a writer's group, but not necessarily an online writer's group. The old fashioned kind, where you actually do know the people involved...

 

[Giovanna Clairval]

Teresa, it is true that sending the ms to oneself wouldn't hold in court (in the US), but it is a "beginning of evidence" in French Legalese, which must have its equivalent in English.

As for me, I deposited the ms in my solicitor's vault (she didn't ask for any fees).

Well, in France and Italy we have "notaires" and "notai", which I render with "solicitors" because the exact term does not exist in English (at least in the Islands). I believe your "notary public" covers a much more restricted area of intervention (recording of oaths and the like). Our "notaire" is the intermediary (sworn) person who records any private contract (marriages, estate acquisitions, donations within a family,...). It's strange that this profession, which goes back to the Roman Right, does not find its exact equivalent in your countries.

 

[iansales]

I believe Teresa's advice was to join a writer's group, but not necessarily an online writer's group. The old fashioned kind...

Ah, I see. So meeting them face to face means you "know" them?

 

[Culhwch]

Ah, I see. So meeting them face to face means you "know" them?

I imagine moreso than an online group - though of course to generalise is pointless. But for the most part, I don't even know the real names of most folks I share my work with here. But if I could find a writer's group to join in my neighbourhood, I imagine none would come and present themselves as 'purplekitty_88'.

 

[iansales]

I'd be a bit worried if they did...

 

[Giovanna Clairval]

I've never been in a writers' group, but the thing I pick up by discussing with friends is that, in a group, most writers think their stuff is so superior, compared with anyone else's production, that they would never stoop to steal a thing.

 

[iansales]

I've been in a couple of on-line ones, and I'm setting up a face-to-face one here in Sheffield (if anyone's interested).

 

[Culhwch]

I've been in a couple of on-line ones, and I'm setting up a face-to-face one here in Sheffield (if anyone's interested).

I'm afraid the commute would be a touch expensive...

 

[Ursa major]

I've been listening on the Radio here to an American woman who, when she was a student, met an English man whiile they were both on holiday in Bayern (Bavaria). They fell in love, were married, settled in England, and had two children. After thirteen years, they were divorced. Four years after that, she found out, from the Police, that her ex-spouse was not who he said he was. He wasn't even English.

The man was convicted of obtaining a passport under false pretences; and even then he wouldn't say who he was. Later, his wife discovered that he was from Florida.

As for the man, he changed his name by deed poll to the name under which he'd been living for decades. (To be fair, neither his assumed nor given name was 'purplekitty_88'.)