Difference between Tolkien and the 'modern Fantasy' authors?

[Teresa Edgerton]

Pyan and OR have the right of it. Editors tend not to make decisions about which books to publish. Marketing makes these decisions ... The publisher responded to public demand created by places like the Chrons, as opposed to a good editor saying "this is a really talented author, we should market this book like crazy".

Not quite true. The marketing department doesn't even get to look at a book unless an editor decides to pitch it to them. Marketing has a veto, but books are still chosen by editors. (Who, admittedly, have a pretty good idea of what marketing will like.)

And the demand created by online forums is miniscule compared to the numbers a book is expected to put up these days.

I think that reader enthusiasm for certain authors does more to fuel online forums than vice versa. Word of mouth is powerful, but the majority of it doesn't happen online.

As far as publishing houses, I think the big difference these days is that none of the big ones are family businesses run by people who genuinely love books. The days when a Raynor Unwin could tell his father that he thought a book would lose them money, nevertheless he believed the book deserved to be published -- those days are long past.

 

[Ursa major]

There are, however, authors who are worthy of being called his successors. Some of the great epic writers, like Erikson, Wurts and Martin leap immediately to mind.

ahem Clansman -- you forgot GRRM (has to be said before the disciples find and burn you for missing him off the list )

Who is this other Martin, then? (I'm only an ignorant SF reader.)

 

[Overread]

I don't know - I know GRR Martin, but this plain Martin chap is someone else - never heard of him - is he any good?

 

[Clansman]

I don't know - I know GRR Martin, but this plain Martin chap is someone else - never heard of him - is he any good?

Same guy. Didn't use Wurts' or Erikson's first name either.

 

[j d worthington]

I have to weigh in on the side that we're less demanding these days (or at least less attentive, not to say fastidious). I've read and am reading an awful lot of older literature lately, and I have to say that in comparison, the bulk (not all, thank goodness, but the bulk) of writing these days is simply a lot flimsier. The sentences and the stories are less well constructed; the nuances are pared down or missing altogether; the layers of allegorical meaning are either nonexistent or miserly; and the depth of genuine emotion and thought is tantamount to that of a child's wading pool. It's not that these things can't be entertaining; but they are so often just that, and little (or nothing) more. They are simply a way to kill time. They are the literary equivalent of the nickelodeon. They are the descendants of the dime novel, pulps, and movie serials, rather than of the myths, legends, and masterpieces of literature.

And this is especially true when it comes to genres -- perhaps even more so with fantasy, which has become, all too often, a thoroughly debased branch of literature, much like (as I've argued before) the Gothic did in the early nineteenth century. Just as with that literary offspring, fantasy still has its shining lights; but when contrasted to the great fantaisistes of the past, it's very difficult (albeit not impossible) to find any with the same depth or commitment to their art of their predecessors....

 

[Pyan]

Agreed, j.d. - and I can't help wondering if its all down to the trend these days of instant gratification is good....
So many times I see the writing of JRRT, in particular, criticised for being full of description, and the cry that it "slows down the action"....

Re-reading the Malloreon by David Eddings recently, I was amazed by the intermittent care taken to produce any sort of sense of place. Just about all the fantasy I've read over the last 20 years has shown a trend to less and less depth, superceded by slam-bang action.

Ach, I sound like a grumpy old man. But I'd love to see another author create a proper, well-thought-out world, with a story that builds on strong foundations, and tells me about what the locations look and smell like. And it would be nice if someone could suggest an author apart from Erikson, Martin, Gemmell, Feist, none of whom do it, for me at least.


Re-reading this, it strikes me that the only place that I can visualize to the same degree as Middle-earth is Ankh-Morpork...which must prove something, though I'm not quite sure what....

 

[j d worthington]

I don't know as it's so much being a grumpy old man as simply someone who has had enough experience of good literature to not be satisfied with less. A development and refinement in taste, in other words.

The slam-bang, fast-paced action tale has its place, and when done well can certainly be worth reading; but at the end of the day, it seldom gives the reader anything near as much as a more thoughtful piece that -- to use a trite phrase -- "comes from within". It's surface, not substance. Whatever Tolkien's faults, and whether you like his work or not, what he delivered was the latter. And frankly, in comparison, I feel we allow ourselves to all-too-often be robbed of a richer experience these days by settling for the former....

 

[Connavar]

Fantasy has become like hollywood. Its all about instant gratification and mainstream trends. Like how superhero and huge blockbuster has taken over,dont even leave place for other type of movies.

I see what J.D mean with classic fantasy and todays. I try to read more and modern fantasy specially of GRRM kind and J,D is right about how they are written.


Maybe its me but i want more than , higher quality than the mass produce stuff.

J.D try The Last Wish by the polish writer i talk about may reading thread. Thats what i want. Fantasy that can entertain and be somewhat quality literary wise.

Pyan you too. What i find most interesting was the dark fairy tale world. Its suppose to be Medevil Europe but its not as cleary copy and paste like GRRM world for example. Its original enough that i dont see real europe of that like many fantasy but i see a new world. Which is rare.

 

[Pyan]

A development and refinement in taste, in other words.

Why, thank you, Mr W...

And another thing... it must be a tribute to the enduring appeal of the man, that I still see newly published authors blurbed (which if it isn't a word, damn well should be...) as The New Tolkien, or Comparable with Tolkien at his best (!) or In The Tradition of JRR Tolkien... Why, Christopher Paolini actually mentions him as a major influence!

In my writing, I strive for a lyrical beauty somewhere between Tolkien at his best and Seamus Heaney’s translation of Beowulf.

Shame that I've never actually found one that lives up to the blurb...


Edit@ Connavar: Do you mean The Last Wish by Andrzej Sapkowski? Thanks, Conn, I'll try and find it.

 

[j d worthington]

You're welcome, Pyan. (If you've not done so, you might try reading Edmund Burke's essay "On Taste":

Preface. Burke, Edmund. 1909-14. On Taste. The Harvard Classics

It's one of the most thoughtful essays on the subject I've ever come across....

Connavar: Will keep that in mind, and see if I can't find it; thanks for the suggestion....

 

[Megari]

Yeah from marketing perspective if u look at the cultural trends - we're more time-poor, confronted with wider choices of books (I'm a fan of fantasies but I also do read a wide range of other genres), activities and so on, so you see this reflected in books where there's instant gratification, repetition of tried n tested parameters of fantasies (heroes/villian(s), a strong feminine character, some kid who is a nobody growing up to be someone to be reckoned with, a mythical world created to be easily imaginable, etc etc).

If there's an author whom can break away from this well-travelled path in writing of fantasies, and still get marketed, then more power to him... does anyone know of any?

Something just occured to me - there must be some marketing ppl from major SFF publishing houses who peruse websites like this one to see what's the trend, and what we are after and so on. Also potential authors-to-be. I could be talking to one or two here, how cool would that be!

 

[Connavar]

You're welcome, Pyan. (If you've not done so, you might try reading Edmund Burke's essay "On Taste":

Preface. Burke, Edmund. 1909-14. On Taste. The Harvard Classics

It's one of the most thoughtful essays on the subject I've ever come across....

Connavar: Will keep that in mind, and see if I can't find it; thanks for the suggestion....

I made a thread about it, so you if want info about the story read there. Too many place just like the back of my book spoil away the story.

Its my turn to recoomend something you havent read. When i read it i thought you would like it.

 

[j d worthington]

If there's an author whom can break away from this well-travelled path in writing of fantasies, and still get marketed, then more power to him... does anyone know of any?

Depends on what you mean by fantasy. I balk at the current (post-Tolkien) concept of fantasy, as that is only one very narrow aspect of an extremely broad field. And, if you are to include the "dark fantasy" sort of thing, then someone like Thomas Ligotti would certainly fit the bill. While not everything he writes is of the first quality, a huge amount is nonetheless very impressive, and he's certainly an original voice -- and has such a following that his books frequently sell out before they are even released (or very shortly thereafter). The catch is that he very seldom, if ever, goes through major publishers, which makes it less likely that the books will be kept in print....

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

Something just occured to me - there must be some marketing ppl from major SFF publishing houses who peruse websites like this one to see what's the trend, and what we are after and so on. Also potential authors-to-be. I could be talking to one or two here, how cool would that be!

No, the marketing people never do that. They only look at sales figures. As I said above, websites like this represent only a tiny (though vocal) part of the market. Also, a lot of the people here rarely buy new books. They buy them second-hand. Marketing people are only interested in the people who buy the books the first time, because that's where the publisher gets paid. Finally, readers here may talk about the newest authors and how stale and boring the old authors are, but in a surprising number of cases they still go out and buy the latest Robert Jordan or Terry Goodkind (or whoever it is they're complaining about), and complain about the new book, too.

Marketing people also don't make a habit of looking for potential new authors. Publishers don't need to go looking for new authors, because the authors come to them.

On the other hand, yes, we do have a lot of talented aspiring writers on this site. If they keep writing and submitting their work (most potential new authors give up after a few rejections) there may well be some future authors here.

And to return to the topic: Publishers would gladly publish more books with the same depth and written with the same passion that Tolkien put into his work, if that's what enough readers were willing to buy.

But what somebody up above said about instant gratification is very, very true. We have a generation of readers coming up that are used to be entertained by video games and action movies that move at a furious rate. They are accustomed to entertainment that requires no emotional or intellectual engagement on their part. Some of these will inevitably give Tolkien because of his name and reputation. Only those who were looking (perhaps consciously, perhaps unconsciously) for something richer and more nuanced than the kind of reading they are accustomed to will find Tolkien a satisfying read.

 

[dreir]

So it all comes back to marketing, doesn't it (as usual)? And it becomes a vicious cycle. Authors want to get published. Publishers want books that sell. Authors become very aware of these 'requirements' or 'rules' that make a book publishable, and they obediently fall in line. Tolkien didn't have to (or didn't choose to) deal with all of these publisher/market expectations. He wrote as he wanted to write. He took 12 years to finish LOTR (I know there was a pesky little war in between, but still). And it took 6 more years for it to be published because he kept arguing with Allen & Unwin / Collins. Who knows, maybe there is a brave, passionate soul somewhere out there who will try to break the current mould one day. Or maybe two passionate souls. One author and one publisher..

- Dreir -

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

No, it doesn't all come down to marketing. As I said before, it's editors who pitch the books in the first place. But the people in marketing do what they are hired to do; they concentrate on what sells, not on what a handful of very vocal readers say they want.

And as far as brave and passionate souls who will try to break the mold: there are authors of that description trying to do just that all of the time. Occasionally, a publisher will take a chance on one of them, just to see if they might, in doing so, discover the next big thing. But it takes a certain amount of bravery on the part of the general book-buying public and/or a very fortunate turn of events, for this to succeed. In other words, there has to be courage all around, and these days that's a hard thing to summon up just when you want it. Sometimes it does happen. Then readers (and therefore the marketing departments at major publishers) want more of the same thing.

 

[The Procrastinator]

And Tolkien wasn't the "next big thing" at the time, either. It took a while for the snowball to roll downhill. Its a different world these days...

I wonder how many of the books being written now will be true classics in 50 years?

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

Its a different world these days...

It is indeed. Book aren't given nearly as much time to make an impression; if they don't sell well in the first few months, they're gone before word of their excellence can spread.

I'm tempted to say that a book like LOTR with no sex and comparatively little violence could never make it with fantasy readers now ... but then there is Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrell to prove that's wrong.

 

[Dee_hee]

The internet and ebook publishing has also opened up the market.

It's easier for a publisher to take a chance when they are not involved with high costs for conventional book marketing and printing.

The market for ebooks seems to be much higher in North America than the UK

 

[The Procrastinator]

If they can make a cheap ebook reader that doesn't give one eyestrain, ebooks should really take off. Though personally I love the smell of books...