Prophecies: TPTWP

[Boaz]

I could not find threads with this prophecy in the title so I'm starting this one.

I know we've discussed these topics before in Dany, Stannis, Aegon, and the Dragon's heads threads. But I'd like to start with a clean slate here.

The religion of R'hllor points toward the end times when Azor Ahai will be reborn and combat The Other. I don't know the specifics of this prophecy. It seems AA must be just, a king, have a magic sword, and possibly be of the blood of old Valyria.

Aemon, Rhaegar, and now Dany (or maybe not) seem to understand something of a prophecy that says a prince from the Targaryen family (blood of Valyria) will rise up to protect Westeros. The Prince must be born in smoke and salt. Somehow the words Ice and Fire apply to this person.

Are these two prophecies the same? Do they refer to the same person? Does AA=TPTWP?

As for AA, Melisandre has declared Stannis to be him reborn. He is a descendent of old Valyrian blood, albeit heavily watered down. He has a pretty sword. He is a king. He is just.

Regarding TPTWP, since the day that Rhaegar discovered this prophecy the Targaryens who have been interpreted to be TPTWP have been Rhaegar, Aegon, and Dany.

Rhaegar is dead. Aegon seems to be dead. Dany was born on Dragonstone amid a storm, thus her name Stormborn. Surely, Dany was born amid salt, but smoke? I'm not sold on this.

Rhaego was stillborn amid Dany's tears. This asks the question whether the Dothraki prophcy concerning The Stallion Who Mounts The World will fit in with these other two prophecies? I don't know.

Can we look for others born amid smoke and salt who have Valyrian blood?

Could this be interpreted as reborn, as in the rebirth that accompanies the blessing of the Drowned God? Davos seems to have died and been reborn amid smoke and salt, but I don't know that he has any dragon blood. Aemon Greyjoy drowned in salt, but I don't know about the smoke or the Valyrian blood.

I find two people born amid smoke (fire and war) and salt (tears). These are the unnamed children born to Gilly and Dalla.

Gilly gave birth moments prior to the renegades of the Night's Watch murdering and raping her family and plundering her home. There was crying, but did the Crows burn Craster's house? Did Craster have Valyrian blood?

Dalla birthed Mance's son during Stannis assault upon the Wildling host. There was burning and crying. Mance was King-Beyond-the-Wall. As for the child's blood... Dalla and her sister, Val, both have blonde hair... not quite white, but it's a start.

But what about Mance's background? He was supposed to have been a wildling child found orphaned. We do know that Brynden Rivers aka Bloodraven was exiled to the Wall. Could Mance be his *******? We also know that at least one Targaryen King travelled to the Wall. Could Mance's son be a descendent of old Valyria? Is this child the prince of Ice and Fire?

We do know that Sam and Gilly are planning on naming this child after Aemon Targaryen.

Help me out on this one.

 

[DeannaBelle]

Jon did go to severe lengths (considering Gilly) for Mance's child, didn't she? How cool is that that twice Stannis had someone jump ahead of him and save Stannis' next victim? That's wonderful, but it's also kind of funny. ANyway, that's a good observation about Mance's son being born amoung salt and smoke.

I am confused how all the religions in the series work together. Are they the same things, told with different words, in different stories? Or are they antagonists of one another? I think the relationship of the religions will determine the relationship of APTWP to AAReborn. Also, let's not forget about the Drowned God, and the psychos from the Iron Isles (oh, and sea has salt, too, but I think more of tears).

Most people from the various regions tend to see the same things in dreams, flames and by other means. Except maybe the Red Woman, whom every other crone/mage/maester says is reading the signs wrong.

 

[Boaz]

GRRM's theology is at the heart of ASOIAF. The story seems headed towards apocalyptic conclusions in the minds of Melisandre, Aemon Targaryen, the Dothraki, and maybe in the minds Marwyn and Aeron Greyjoy also.

I think his balancing act so far has shown the various high and low points of the various religious views in Westeros. I also think so far that this allows the readers to read their own biases into the story... just like we are doing with chivalry/betrayal, honor/dishonor, secrecy/honesty... and also with the various families and characters Stark/Lannister, Martell/Tyrell, Renly/Stannis, Catelyn/Cersei. Martin really does not paint his characters, their characteristics, and their religions into corners. This is attested by the fact that we ourselves are divided on whether the behaviors of Catelyn, Tyrion, Jaime, Eddard, Jon, and Dany are correct or not.

So, are all religions equally valid? I dunno. The religions of R'hllor, The Faith, the Drowned God, and the Dothraki religion all seem to claim exclusivity of being the one and only divine institution. I've not seen demonstrations of the supernatural from any religions except for R'hllor. Melisandre has power, this cannot be denied. We could explain the actions of the Septons of the Faith, Aeron Greyjoy (dang it, I think I've referred to Aeron twice already today as Aemon... I'm getting old, folks) and his minions, and the assassins of the Many-Faced God away by human effort.

The old crone that foretells the future to the Brotherhood without Banners seems to have some supernatural ability. Also, Quaithe and the Warlocks of Qarth both seem to have supernatural powers, but I'm not sure of their religious affiliations.

If there is a coming apocalypse, a veritable divine showdown, upon which the fate of the world rests... then I think that any religion that does not have a prophecy concerning this struggle is a false religion. I mean false as in having lost it's knowledge of it's original calling or just completely man-made in the first place. For example, it appears that the Night's Watch was doing good by keeping the wildlings at bay, but it had lost sight of it's original purpose in defending humans from demons... the NW is quickly rectifying this lapse.

I tend to think that these prophecies of a messiah, whether Dothraki, Targaryen, or R'hllorish are correct. I think that TPTWP=AA=The Stallion. Now, I know that all three do not seem to be aimed towards the same goal, but that's just the details... Remember how Mollander and Alleras talk of dragons in the Prologue to AFFC? The details of the stories regarding dragons differed, but the constant was Dragons. I think the same is true here... the constant is a Messiah.

Obviously, I don't mean messiah as in God-made-flesh-to-save-the-world-individually-and-collectively-from-sin. I mean messiah as in a champion. Tyrion twice had champions go do battle for him. This messiah may be divine, semi-divine, or human. But I think he/she will defend the human race against demons.

My opinion is that Martin will portray the religions of the Drowned God, R'hllor, the secret Targaryen belief in their Prince, and most likely the Dothraki religion as sprouting from the same seed. Reading between the lines, these seem to believe that their god battling is chaos through his champion.

As I said above, I might just be projecting my own theology onto the framework that GRRM has built. Some of you may have guessed from various posts that my theology is monotheism in the Judeo-Christian tradition. I admit that even with my fondness for Greco-Roman, Norse, Chinese, and Persian mythologies that I really cannot believe in a pantheon of gods or religious pluralism.

But some of you may, and if GRRM is headed towards one of these ends, then you may forsee it easier than I can.

Whether the theology and cosmology of ASOIAF are GRRM's personal views or just for this story, I cannot say.

Blah, blah, blah. Yadda, yadda, yadda.

 

[pan naranus]

salt and smoke

Yes Dany was born amid salt and smoke - the salt of the narrow sea and the smoke of Dragonstone Mountain. A bloody volcano you blind tiger!

 

[Raul]

Thank you for this thread, Boaz! I must tell you, that my grandfather send me whole barrel home-made christmas beer for christmas, so my wits are slower than usual. The beer must be the reason why I was so surprised reading your speculations about Dalla's and Gilly's sons. Why? Because the babies are SO unimportant! Why they are so unimportant? Because of the TIME LIMITS
TIME LIMITS
How much time passed between finding those direwolf puppies until Sam's arriving to Oldtown? How many days, months,a year maybe? Fact is, time was short, but so many events happened during this short time. My point is - G.R.R.M. is working with very tight time limit. There is no time leaps forward and there will be no time leaps forward. G.R.R.M. will never show as Dany as eighteen years old or Jon with a grey beard. And he will never give those babies 33 years to grow up and save the world and mankind. How long the winter will be? When becomes spring? I must admit I never understand time passing in Westeros completely. But I believe that in the end of the last book Jon (if he stays alive) will be no older than 15 -16 years old youth as he is and those babies will be no more older than a year and all what they gonna do is sucking breast, screaming, sleeping, peeing and ******** in their diapers. They will not save the world.they will not have a magic sword and they will not scream to their Dragons: go, get them, boys! and thats why the are completely unimportant.
I don't know who is AA or TPTWP, but I believe pan naranus was right, but only in case if:
1. Dany was born in Dragonstone?(I understood that she was borned on ship, but I am not sure)
2. Does Dragonstone smokes? Yes, it is on Volcano, but is somewhere mentioned that it smokes?
Lastly, it's pretty possible that AA is some *black horse' who steps up in on of the last three books.
And again, I am sorry about my badly written reply. My english teacher took a vacation.

 

[Boaz]

Volcano? Really? Well, so much for my powers of perception. I just thought that Dragonstone had access to a lava well deep under the castle...

In my defense, I say that Tiggers don't have to be intelligent... they just have to be fun to be around. Kind of like Moon Boy...

Don't volcanoes only smoke when they are close to being active? If Dragonstone smokes, why does it not blow? Are there still enchantments upon it that hold it together?

I agree that time is short, but GRRM's original plan was to place his fourth book five years after the third (at that time the series was only to be six books)... I guess it was to be two linked trilogies...

If GRRM puts his five years back in after ADWD, and if the last two books take two years as I think the first two books lasted almost two years, then Aemon "Battleborn" Rayder will be about seven... ok, so he's still too young to probably face off with The Other in a traditional battle of strength and skill.

But Bran was seven when AGOT started. And if you agree that the final confrontation is divine, not human, in nature... then who's to say exactly how The Other will be defeated and what powers will be used to beat him. Does this sword actually need to chop off the head of The Other or is that another human misremembering/misunderstanding? Mayhaps the sword just needs to be present for the Lord of Light to channel his power through... Or maybe the messiah gets killed and The Other will win... hmmm.

 

[Raul]

Since timing in Westeros is so messed up, maybe it is easier to speak about biological years or something, hmm?
So, a travel from AGOT to AFFC tooked almost two years, right? Jon and other remaining characters are two years older since the beginning.
But I understood that events in ADWD are running parallel with events in AFFC. So ADWD will end chronologically about same time when Sam arrived Oldtown in the end of AFFC. So two last remaining books - will there be a time jump forward? A year, three years, five years? OK, it's possible although I wish it will not happen. So when will the Others attack Wall and Westeros? Not in ADWD,I believe. In ADWD they will make beaten wildlings their zombies or cannonfodder. How much time will take chronologically from the end of the ADWD since the attack of the Others? I don't believe the Others need much time to attack Westeros. Looks like they are almost ready. Civil war in Westeros have weaked humans, winter is coming and their granarys are empty. So in my point of view - time between ADWD and next book will be short.(Lets hope that writing time will also be short).
Well, it means that AA (or and) TPTWP must start action pretty soon. Who is gonna be that mystical hero(es)? Dany, Jon, Bran, Tyrion, somebody we don't know yet?I agree with Boaz - maybe the keyword is really 'reborn', but I am not agree with Valyrian blood -TPTWP may need it, but not AA.
Can we say Dany died in the end of AGOT and reborned as a Mother of Dragons? Bran? When he waked from his coma? Hmm, Bran... There was lot of smoke when he waked, from burning library, but salt... damn it there wasnt any salt! Ok, what about Davos reborned after the battle, when he sat on that rock, salty sea around, but again no smoke.Who else reborned? Tyrion?
No, my friends, we will not figure it out! Waybe it's better to give up and wait for a ADWD?

 

[Boaz]

No, my friends, we will not figure it out! Waybe it's better to give up and wait for a ADWD?

Sure, but this will not stop us from guessing wildly!

 

[Raul]

A CHRISTMAS STORY
Sam's travel to Wall with Gilly and BABY - Travel to Egypt
Starring:
Sam - Joseph
Gilly - Mary
BABY BOY - AA or(and) TPTWP
shepards - Night Watch
star - Red Comet
Three Kings - Bran, Hodor, Meera,Jojen
wildlings, Others - Roman Legionnairies
Craster - Herodes
donkey - mule or mare

 

[TK-421]

Too much to think about when you're loaded on eggnog. Maybe when I get over X-Mas.

Jon is AA reborn IMO.

 

[Tysha]

Are these two prophecies the same? Do they refer to the same person? Does AA=TPTWP?.

I think it's the same:
(Melisandre ):

"Westeros must unite beneath her one true king, the prince that was promised, Lord of Dragonstone and chosen of R’hllor.”​

"You are the prince that was promised, and if you fail the world fails with you.”​

"(Maester Aemon):But where is the prince that was promised?”
“He stands before you,” Melisandre declared, “though you do not have the eyes to see. Stannis Baratheon is Azor Ahai come again,​

 

[Boaz]

Tysha, nice job finding the conversation between Aemon and Mel. Looks like they both interpret their prophecies to be the same.

 

[DeannaBelle]

Here's my problem with any of the characterts that I like being AA Reborn: The 1st AA made his sword all neato by slaying his own woman in a very intimate moment... Will our second AA do the same? If so, I have a major problem with that! I cannot respect that character. That's why I don' mind Stannis being the one. He already had lost my respect, so there'd be no suprises and no love lost. But his sword....

Is there another way to get a flaming sword?

Also, remember Dany DID "give the gift" to her khal when she smothered him. Using her own brand of blood magic, she birthed her dragons.

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

Ive always felt there were three separate people in these prophecies and of the three AA reborn is gonna be the evil one....Im telling ya, Stannis is gonna get possessed and turn on Mel and stab her through the heart. He's living in the Nightfort for R'hllors sake, thats the same as putting out a sign on the Wall saying "Demonic possession desired, inquire within."

So Jon is the Prince that was promised and Dany is the Stallion the does the mounting but of course that doesnt say anything about the three heads of the dragon which could be something else entirely.

Obviously whenever Aemon doesnt agree with someone in the books then that person is wrong. So Mel is obviously off-base about Stannis' true calling...I mean Aemon is Aemon.

 

[Boaz]

for R'hllors sake

thats the same as putting out a sign on the Wall saying "Demonic possession desired, inquire within."

Just so.

Obviously whenever Aemon doesnt agree with someone in the books then that person is wrong. So Mel is obviously off-base about Stannis' true calling...I mean Aemon is Aemon.

For R'hllor's sake, the next thing you know you'll be calling him Aemon Freaking Targaryen! AFT!!! AFT!!!

 

[viZion]

I bet Aemon is a Targ *******.

 

[MemmoN]

I beleive the child (Jon?) between Lyanna and Rhaegar is the TPTWP, because he was born from his mothers tears amid the smoke of war. Plus he has a magic sword longclaw and Dragonglass aka obsidian that kills the others. Hes also currently in charge of protecting the world since he is LC of the wall. I also think Mel will begin to beleive he is AA since they will both be on the wall for the next book, I mean where else will a possible AA canidate come from but within company of Mel who seems to be the resident expert. Dany is another prospect but i truly beleive she is master of her own fate not the other way around.

 

[TK-421]

I bet Aemon is a Targ *******.

I wonder when you missed the part about Aemon not being a Targ ******* (as I know you were being witty with all the theories about various Targ bastards here and there like Jon and Tyrion) but he is actually a full-blooded Targaryen, brother to Aerys and actually was next in line to inherit the Iron Throne.

 

[viZion]

I wonder when you missed the part about Aemon not being a Targ ******* (as I know you were being witty with all the theories about various Targ bastards here and there like Jon and Tyrion) but he is actually a full-blooded Targaryen, brother to Aerys and actually was next in line to inherit the Iron Throne.

Wait? What? Aemon really *is* a Targaryen? Next in line to the throne? I call shenanigans. That's just completely Unlikely!



Heh. Duh. It was a joke for the exact reasons you mentioned . Even funnier (to me) because Aemon really is a Targaryen.

 

[TK-421]

Aemon the Unlikely. I like it!

As long as we amuse ourselves, doesn't matter if the rest of us, are, well, duh.