The Demise of English? (A Call to Arms!)

[scalem X]

In my opinion, it depends. I agree with any word used, if only it doesn't carry the plot. If you say: 'The trebuchet propelled a boulder into the air.' There might be less commotion than when you say: 'Anna had always liked trebuchets.' (and then go on, not explaining what a trebuchet is (I know it's not a very good example)).
Now in the other cases:
From time to time I have to look up a word while reading. It does bother me. I curse myself for not knowing the word. But at least it teaches me something.

When I write in English, I don't think I'll be having problems with people not understanding me, but in Dutch they do seem to bother. But I still think I'm right, the conversation went like this:
-Reader: you use too much difficult and bombastic words
-Me: *rereads text* really?
-Reader: yeah, totally!
-Me: can you give me an example from my text?
-Reader: *gives some examples*
-Me: but those are normal words *mutterIhopethisisn'tyourmothertongueforyoursakemutter*

Like Ace said: shouldn't you be happy if a book learns you something, rather than annoyed?

 

[Ursa major]

Close. It's a stroke or slash, /. See here. We used to say "stroke" here in the UK, but the advent of the personal computer, and then the WWW, has seen "slash" become more common.

So a virgule is a solidus.

I only mention this becase a couple of decades ago, the name solidus was used in a document I read that described the MML (Man Machine Language, which should confirm just how long ago this was) to be used on telecommunications equipment. There was also the "reverse solidus", now known as the back-slash. (At least the number of syllables is going down: solidus - virgule - stroke/slash. )

 

[Erin99]

I like books where, as Giovanna says, the author puts the unfamiliar word in a context that is easy to understand. I'm not against books that push the boundaries of my vocabulary, but I have difficulty remembering words and their meanings once I've read them (never used to have that trouble). So, for people who have memory problems, learning new words can present a problem: I read and "learn" a word, but then, even just a day later, it escapes me, no matter how many times I tried to memorise it. (I've already forgotten your two examples, Teresa, except that one means a small cart. )

Which is frustrating for someone who used to have a great memory. Books that have many unfamiliar words written without context are infuriating because, upon every re-read, I have to look up the definitions again. I'd like to believe that it's the author's job to widen a reader's vocabulary, but it's no good throwing words around if it interrupts the flow of the story. Good writers will show us what these words mean, so we can understand how they fit in.

Sorry if my views annoy some people.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

But that's just it, Leisha, very often when people complain about words they don't understand, the context gives a pretty good idea of what the author is talking about.

And it isn't about memorizing unfamiliar words ... it's about surrounding ourselves with influences that make those words familiar, and then passing them on.


Anyway, like scalem, I'm often astounded by the words that other people consider "too obscure." With some of the words I use in my writing, I know they're a bit archaic, and I put them there because I feel they add to the atmosphere, or because they are the only words that say exactly what I want to say (there is no modern equivalent), or simply because I think they are beautiful. But some of the words that other people find difficult ... they're just part of my ordinary vocabulary, the words I think when I'm holding an internal dialogue with myself. I feel like I've known them all my life.

(My children -- who are all in their twenties and thirties -- sometimes complain because I "use too many long words." The last time I remember this happening, the word in question was gaudy. When I pointed out that it only had two syllables, my daughter gave me an evil look.)

Yet I am sure that the people who don't understand everything I say know many words that I don't. If we trim everything down to include only the words we have in common, a part of the language will die.

 

[Pyan]

If we trim everything down to include only the words we have in common, a part of the language will die.

Funnily enough, though, the OED just keeps on growing....

Keep at it, Teresa - if only half your readers bother to look up a word they don't immediately recognise, at least that's more that know it now than before!

 

[HardScienceFan]

i thought the thesaurus became extinct in the Upper Cretaceous

 

[Erin99]

But that's just it, Leisha, very often when people complain about words they don't understand, the context gives a pretty good idea of what the author is talking about.

Ah, when I see words I'm unfamiliar with, a good majority of the time they seem to have been thrown in there as an adjective, which doesn't help me visualise what that adjective is trying to tell me. However, I'm not complaining about authors who do use "big words", and use them effectively. I love those authors.

And perhaps "memorise" was the wrong word. But in the modern age, the average young person (and I mean a typical youth here, the type who hates reading, sadly) doesn't come across grand words like inscrutable, interminable, and guady in everyday life (one of my sisters looked at me strange when I said "synergy" to her the other day - and she’s older than me). And by reading a word in a book I'm not familiarising myself with it, and nor will I have the chance, because by the time I've read the book the word has escaped my mind.

I wish this didn't happen, but it does.


However, as I writer, I agree that some words feel appropriate, in which case you'd be daft not to use them.

I hope I’m making sense. I keep making loads of errors tonight, so forgive me if my point is not clear. But I do agree with most of what you say.

 

[Lith]

Heh, I tripped someone up on macabre last week. There was a pause, and then she asked me if that was like morbid...

But I've never seen the first two examples. I guess I need to read more goat-centered fiction.

The only instance I can think of where a fiction author tee'd me off with big words was China Mieville's Iron Council, but that might have been partly due to other reasons, as well as having to reach for the dictionary five times on one particular page. I kept getting the feeling he wasn't using the words quite right. However, with most authors I've known, that hasn't been the case, and the general meaning is clear enough.

 

[Erin99]

I'm guilty of using "interminable" in my book (not published). But I'm positive it's easy enough to understand, given the context it's in...


Five times in one page does seem ridiculous, though. Although I'm very tempted to find that book now, just so I can see it for myself.

 

[scalem X]

Interesting that you bring up the example of morbid and macabre, Lith. I'd never use morbid, but I would use macabre (I understand both, but still). It's weird, because in Dutch you have them both ('macaber' and 'morbide'), so it's not language deficiency. Just personal preference I guess?

 

[iansales]

Clearly, none of you lot have read Anthony Burgess

Synergy is business-speak these days, and used a lot. I've never heard syzygy used in conversation though.

 

[scalem X]

Ian, I have.
I read A Clockwork Orange. Real horrorshow novel, all you vecks and devotchka's should go out and read it. You'll viddy the world through a whole different perspective.

 

[chrispenycate]

But that is invented language though I do feel his talent for developing synthetic, internally consistent languages was best demonstrated in Jean.Jaques Annaud's "La Guerre du Feu" (the quest for fire, apparently), where he invented two, mutually incompatible.
Still, it's sapiens to be homo – The wanting seed?
The wild ass I already knew, along with its artillery connections, but the "fiacre" I mixed up, after a bureau of automobiles in Paris (mentioned in a "Maigret" where Saint Fiacre was the blason above the door…
It's the things you think you know, but are wrong about, that trip you up, not the total unknown.

 

[Connavar]

I certainly would, although probably not if I was talking about the weather.

And I think we probably have different definitions for "conversation" and "specialized vocabulary." Under conversation I include the discussions we have here. (So, now that I think of it, you have used the word virgule in conversation.)

And look at someone like Chris: If he knows a word, he just uses it. His active vocabulary and his passive vocabulary are practically identical. It was the same for me at one time. Then I started working in retail, which is something of a melting pot in terms of education and background, and found out how many reasonably intelligent adults hadn't a clue to what I was talking about a lot of the time. Since I didn't want them to think I was showing off (also, I grew weary of explaining myself), I simplified my vocabulary. Now I think it was a bad idea; I should have just been myself, and they could like me or not, just as they chose.

I suppose my point is, writers should be themselves, too -- but they should be their most articulate and eloquent selves.

I agree with that.

I still enjoy it when a good author uses words that arent usual cause then you learn new words even if you will never use it in a conseravation.
Specially since i use 0% english offline.
Also its always much more fun to see words you didnt know of used well in a sentence.


Have you read Jack Vance ? I found his books to be full of strange words to me atleast like the word you mentioned for the monkey. Having read him enough and checked up what the words mean now i can read him perfectly without a dictionary.


I will take that over an author who triest dumb it down with too simple words for readers like the ones you mentioned.


Specially in SF where its usually about strange worlds and concepts you cant use slang or simple english. I want refined english then.


I didnt have much respect or use for english really before i started reading so much. I didnt need english other than for school really.
Then with great writers i saw the quality of it used well.

 

[Lena]

Though you are speaking about the English language and the reader, who speaks English as a native (?) I want to bring up another point which comes to my mind when I read through your discussion.
I learned English and French at school and (at that time) reading books in foreign languages seemed to be very difficult – the books were even encoded. It was (and is) really frustrating not to understand what the author wants to tell you. But than I accepted that it is impossible to look up every second word in a dictionary and today I like English books. (Yes, I'm a fan of English/American Fantasy novels)
Now I can live with the unfamiliar words because I fill these gaps with the meaning that is given in the context.
Therefore I don't complain about unknown words in my own language – they are not even half as much as the unknown words in English and French.

(But maybe I don't complain about long or strange words, because I'm German and the German language is full of words with more than one syllable.)

Teresa, I read some of your books (in English of course) and could understand them very well even though I didn't get every word.
If an author is able to deal with the own language he/she can get the issue across to the reader without diminishing or 'mutilating' the vocabulary.

I hope, this wasn't out of topic but I felt I had to note it.