Things we didn't have to know...

[Koopa]

Come again?

I know americans make lots of canadian jokes, other then that...

 

[TK-421]

Like, what's the difference between Canada and yogurt? Yogurt has culture!!

Oh, it is fun to laugh at oneself. Others should practice it more often.

 

[DeannaBelle]

(Um, yeah, I bet you do have a lot of American jokes.)

Anyway, we didn't HAVE to know about Arya eating the worm in ... whatever temple that was. But it's hella cool that we do know.

 

[the smiling weirwood]

That worm thing was positively cute compared to the other stuff you've mentioned.

 

[Cerigwen]

Oddly enough, I've taken most of the violence in stride because I'd read things like Clan of the Cave Bear and have read other things that were disturbing in fantasy novels. Somehow, the two things that bothered me the most was the death of Ned Stark and the Red Wedding. Most cultures still hold hospitality sacred. I was also shocked because I'd never read an author who had no problem killing off central characters. Once Ned died, I realized I'd better not get attached to anyone. Oh, and Cat's sister still breastfeeding her kid at 5 yrs old got to me too.

 

[Tansy]

Personally I like it when something I read shocks me or causes any emotional response, it means it is well written and I care about what is happening to the characters.

I don't find GRRM that shocking to be honest but then I do read Clive Barker i certainly don't think he writes to these things to shock, it's more illustrating important events in the life of the character, what shapes them.

I think the violence and sex is neccessary and the values of Westeros should not be compared against our own modern day ones. In that age/world the world was a tougher place and they had different values and experiences. It is all about context and if you think back to how women were treated only back a couple of hundred years ago, and still are in some places, and you can imagine how it was way, way back. Also when the average life expectancy is probably 40/50 then you tend to get on with things a lot quicker. Catelyn is probably only about 29 and is considered middle aged.

You only have to open a newspaper today to see that in reality things aren't that different today. I like the fact you are constantly waiting for something bad to happen to the characters, it puts you in their skin as you read it. If you are worried they are going to be attacked, raped, robbed or killed imagine how they are feeling. Personally I likk to know all I can about a character's experiences good or bad, it makes their actions and emotions more understandable and real... so bring it on

 

[djellibeybi]

Boaz for Class President!!!

I agree (except with your slander against a great film like The Departed).

However, some scenes were distrubing nonetheless, especially for someone who can be described, as Han Solo once said: "I can imagine alot." Somehow, GRRM still keeps them coming back for more. I would like to know how HBO will adapt such scenes.

Watch the original the departed was based on. Then you'll understand what Boaz meant. (Hongkong movie called Infernal Affairs)

The thing that makes me love GRRM IS his attention to real life details. Gritty, visceral, undiluted...like real life. Thats what makes his story so damn believable. I loved Tolkien when I first read him, but he'll always read like a folklorish, fairytalish kinda story to me, but reading GRRM is like watching a R21 movie.

 

[Charming Serpent]

I concur. I have read a **** ton of books and not one has come to the realism that GRRM brings with his characters. Literally, bar none. Well, Enders Game was nice, but still. There are not many truly good or truly evil characters, like real life. And like real life, the ones that were extrememly one sided are dead. Most i said, not all. (i.e. Brienne) His depth with thoughts, emotions and perceptions and the way he can distort, change, and cloud all of them is truly a work of art.

So, I say bring more of what people are not used to on! In real life I would look at a car wreck no matter how gruesome and that is what I like about these books. The fact that the **** happens how it would really happen. No "fairy tale don't hurt anyones feelings, the good always come out on top bs."

 

[DeannaBelle]

Oddly enough, I've taken most of the violence in stride because I'd read things like Clan of the Cave Bear and have read other things that were disturbing in fantasy novels. Somehow, the two things that bothered me the most was the death of Ned Stark and the Red Wedding. Most cultures still hold hospitality sacred. I was also shocked because I'd never read an author who had no problem killing off central characters. Once Ned died, I realized I'd better not get attached to anyone. Oh, and Cat's sister still breastfeeding her kid at 5 yrs old got to me too.

Yep, well some cultures hold late breastfeeding sacred, too. I think I read recently that the world average for weening is like 2.5 years or something crazy. My mind just can't comprehend that some people ACUTALY breastfeed their children until the age of seven and eight... Yes, people, I am speaking of people who do this in modern Western society.

I don't remember Clan of the Cave Bear being violent. Except for Broud (too Proud to beg).

And yes, Charming, I agree with you. I prefer books without strict good or bad characters. None of us are good, none of us are bad, but we have the capacity to do both. Only God is good. The rest of us are people. And I like the people in stories to be people.

 

[Tansy]

I've just finished AFfC and I did find the overuse of the C word a tad distasteful, especially when Arya, or should I say Cat uses it. I know it was to demonstrate the colourful wharf side vernacular but I just really hate that word

I can't remember Clan of the Cave Bear being that violent either

 

[Qhorin Halfhand]

I've just finished AFfC and I did find the overuse of the C word a tad distasteful, especially when Arya, or should I say Cat uses it. I know it was to demonstrate the colourful wharf side vernacular but I just really hate that word

I can't remember Clan of the Cave Bear being that violent either

C word? As in the oppose to the D word? I don't get the stigma surrounding c**t when d**k is so prevalent in heaps of media.

 

[Tansy]

I've no idea what it is with that word, I just dislike it, there are times when it is fitting, but generally I tend not to use it

maybe it is just me, bad language doesn't normally bother me it's just that word

 

[Charming Serpent]

I live in Pittsburgh and all the girls around here flip if anyone uses that word. For some reason girls just truly truly despise that word.

 

[Call me Gytha]

I think that a lot of the sex scenes written in ASOIAF are gratuitous, for example although I read the series a couple of years back I remember the dilemma of realistic vs gratuitous and I recall a part containing Cersei and a female courtier and that settled the argument for me.... gratuitous and unneccessary

 

[the smiling weirwood]

Why is sex unnecessary? People talk about gratuitous sex but I don't see it as a problem unless the excess impedes the plotlines.

 

[viZion]

I think that a lot of the sex scenes written in ASOIAF are gratuitous, for example although I read the series a couple of years back I remember the dilemma of realistic vs gratuitous and I recall a part containing Cersei and a female courtier and that settled the argument for me.... gratuitous and unneccessary

You're speaking of the scene with Cersei and Lady Taena Merryweather? That scene actually revealed quite a bit more about Cersei's character, motivations, and personality. It wasn't gratuitous at all if you look past the surface of the scene. Try reading it again and see if you change your mind. If not, then I guess we'll just have to disagree .

 

[Tansy]

I think there is a difference between gratuitous and not to your taste

I agree that it let us know more about Cersei and just how far she would go to get what she wants. She uses sex as a weapon to enthrall people and make them more biddable to her will. With that in mind I think GRRM has kept the sex scenes to the minimum he could in order to let us in on that side of her nature

 

[Qhorin Halfhand]

I think there is a difference between gratuitous and not to your taste

I agree that it let us know more about Cersei and just how far she would go to get what she wants. She uses sex as a weapon to enthrall people and make them more biddable to her will. With that in mind I think GRRM has kept the sex scenes to the minimum he could in order to let us in on that side of her nature

It also lets us know how she despises being of a sex that is viewed as culturally weaker, she considers herself strong and hates that being see her as weak just because she's a woman. When she has sex with Taena, its not for enjoyment but because she likes feeling powerful and male. I really liked what that scene revealed about Cersei and was perhaps the first time I really even remotely liked her as a character.

I guess I don't mind the sexual references and content in ASOIAF because (I HOPE THIS IS NOT TMI) I am quite open about sex; my friends and I talk about sex quite openly so I know how big a deal it can be for some people and why someone like Tyrion whose lived with physical inadequacy his entire life would view sex as so important, especially with whores who would always tell him what he wants to hear.

I find MOST of the sex in the series realistic, though some characters like [most of the Bloody Mummers] being so fixated on rape is pretty out there but I guess its just a way to highlight their brutality.

 

[Tansy]

I agree with you there Qhorin - it's just hard to type much covertly at work

I think if GRRM had not included any sex scenes the book would lose some of it's realism. As for the bloody mummers being fixated on rape - I don't see that rape as anything to do with sex. Rape is about power, humiliation, domination and control and very little to do with sex (that's just the means to the end).

Also the male dominated culture in which they live sees women as little more than possessions or prize dogs with no rights, sold off to whichever suitor has most to offer (alliance, wealth, political standing etc), rape was probably not seen as such a horrendous crime as it is in today's society. Women were just there to satisfy mens' needs and if it they weren't willing then so what? To common mercenaries like the mummers who live a brutal everyday existence (also hardly likely to rise high in their society) what better way to get their own back, and have what they feel they are entitled to, by taking with force that which they could never hope to get in normal circumstance, ie. raping some highborn, thoroughbred woman who wouldn't go near them in normal circumstances, or a lord's wife, daughter or pretty servant

I see it as an act of bitterness, they are the lowest of the low - looked down upon by everyone so they make themselves feel better by taking what they want from people weaker than themselves. No matter how bad or angry they feel they can always make some poor wench feel worse than they do and gain some measure of satisfaction and proof of their masculinity at the same time. It also adds to their brutal reputation and increases their infamy.

 

[Call me Gytha]

I get what you're all saying and as I said it was a few years ago I read the books. Personally though I don't think a lot of the graphic sex details are necessary for character insight, at least I don't recall feeling any more enlightened by the characters involved for reading the details of their trysts. Certainly I don't think the books would have lost anything by these scenes being alluded to rather than described and there is always the dialogue for character insight. Having said that though, I don't have a problem with such scenes being incorporated I just find myself skipping over them as I don't feel they add any substance. On another level I guess the books would have less balance if the violence was portrayed in great detail but the sex was glossed over.