Most thrilling fight...

[the smiling weirwood]

I like the scene where Dany takes control of the Unsullied and kills the Astapori. Good stuff.

 

[Hilarious Joke]

I'd have to go Beric v the Hound. Man I feel sad for the Hound.

EDIT: Even though he wins that one!

 

[Boaz]

Sure, fire is Sandor's Achilles Heel... Thoros bothered him for years, Tyrion's fire drove him from the battle, and Beric freaked him out... but Beric, Arya, and the others did not accuse him of fearing fire, they put him on trial for multiple homicides. Feel sad for Sandor when Gregor burned half his face off, but don't feel sad for the psychopath who fought Beric.

Now that being said, I find Sandor a very compelling character. I fully desire his redemption... I want him to find trust and love in another person... I want him to repent of his sins... I want him to find forgiveness and peace of mind. Barring that, I would not mind if he exacted revenge upon his tormentors instead of continuing to torture the weak.

 

[TK-421]

Agree. It wouldn't feel right if a Sandor redemption did not include a whole lot of killing.
Could the same be said about Jaime's redemption?

 

[the smiling weirwood]

I want him to find trust and love in another person...

In order for that to happen he must first find it within himself which is altogether a more difficult proposition.

I think if Sandor "found true love" and was redeemed he would cease to be dynamically himself, that is, he would lose any character momentum. GRRM understands this very well, which is why he has promised us no happy endings. Happy endings are dreadfully boring.

 

[Boaz]

tsw, I agree with the simplicity and neatness of the happily ever after ending. But I did not mean I want him to find true love... I wrote I want him to find trust and love in another person. This may include romantic love, but I was thinking more of any kind of relationship.

From the many sermons I've heard, I gather that the ancient Greeks had three words for love. Phileo means brotherly love, sincere affection, camraderie... This defines the relationships between siblings, friends, and fellowships. Storgay means romantic love, a passionate attraction, physical union... This means the love between spouses and lovers. Agape means pure love, a willingness to sacrifice everything (even life) for the object of agape, divine love, holy love... This is the love of a parent for a child, a soldier for his country, and a god for his people.

Back to Sandor... I did not necessarily mean that he should find storgay (romance) with Sansa or another woman. I hope he could find phileo (a true comrade) or agape (someone or some cause) to champion.

He did not find phileo with Gregor... That's an understatement. His parents did not provide agape to shelter him from Gregor. He's been left mishapen, unable to find storgay. He's been unable and unwilling to find phileo with the White Cloaks nor any other soldiers because he detests knights.

His two closest relationships are with his warhorse and a child whom he kidnapped. Interestingly, they are foul tempered outcasts just like Sandor. Stranger and Arya both recognize that Sandor allows them the freedom to openly display and vent their hostilities upon the world. I don't think these relationships fall under the category of phileo... I mean, Stranger is a horse and Arya hates Sandor more than she respects or pities him.

So far I've just talked about love, but in my previous post I said I want him to find trust and love in another person. This brings me to trust.

Sandor's nickname is The Hound. Joffrey simply called him dog. He was trained to obey and defend his master. He did this swiftly and tirelessly. Examples include the murder of Mycah, his bullying of the White Cloaks, the attack on Joffrey's assailant and his defense of Sansa in the ensuing riot. Sandor may have given something like agape to the Lannisters, but it was not returned. He trusted them, but they did not truly respect him.

Sandor's parents, his brother, and his employers failed in their duty of keeping his trust. So in his mind he could never trust another person. Case in point... Sandor disclosed his secret to Sansa with the caveat that he'd kill her if she told anyone. He was afraid to trust her.

tsw, you commented that for Sandor to find trust and love in another person he must first find it within himself which is altogether a more difficult proposition. I believe he hates himself. I wonder if he trusts himself. I think he has some code of ethics that he tries to live by. But I think he conviently breaks his own rules on ethics when it suits his purpose... and he justifies his behavior by claiming that the knights and lords broke the rules first.

He might find love and trust in another person if he can find it in himself first. But I think maybe the problem has been with the objects of his trust and love. His parents were weak. His brother was psycopathic. His employers were avaricious. If Sandor could just trust someone, I mean the right person, a good person, just a little, then he might find they trust him in return. This may or may not be happening on that island. The leader of that community seems trustworthy and honorable. Mayhaps Sandor could find phileo.

 

[LyannaWolfBlood]

Does the Red Wedding count? It was thrilling in a "oh-my-f**king-god-no-WAY" kind of way.

 

[the smiling weirwood]

Together Boaz and I have completely derailed the thread, but let's keep rolling.

One might say that the ideas presented in your post constitute true love, but let's not argue semantics.

My main point was that as much as one might wish for Sandor to find happiness, once he did so he would become someone else and cease to be Sandor. Perhaps it is different for others, but Sandor is a very compelling character for me precisely because he is so broken and scarred. If he were not, would you really care about him at all?

Maybe I am a jaded cynic, but happy shining people are so boring. I would hate to read about them.

 

[Boaz]

LWB, the Red Wedding counts in my book. It was thrilling because I thought someone, Robb or mayhaps the Smalljon or Dacey, would escape. But no. After Eddard's death I wondered at the similarity between ASOIAF and Dune. Robb and Paul lost their fathers and then rose to the heighth of power. I also saw a similarity to Raymond Feist's Riftwar stories... Lord Eddard and Duke Borric saw imminent civil war and outside invasion... both died... their sons Robb and Lyam rose to power... both had ******* sons who might challenge their brothers and seize the throne. But the similarities ended with the Red Wedding.

tsw, Is there a thread that we have not derailed? Yet at the heart of the discussion about the most thrilling fight, I think we must discuss the reason for the fight taking place and the reasons why we've chosen certain fighters. And I agree that Sandor is a compelling character because of his horrific physical scars only mirror the charred lump that is his soul.

My apologies for rambling about love. I just wanted to point out that I'd love for him to attempt to find some form of a meaningful relationship that was not built on coercion, greed, vengeance, or co-dependency... and OH! let me tell you there's a fine line between love and co-dependency!

Anyway, back to Sandor... To answer your question, I would not care about Sandor if he was happy and whole. Barristan "Freaking" Selmy is an athkicker (If you've seen America's Sweethearts, then remember Hank Azaria's lines to Christopher Walken at the end... hilarious!) of the highest magnitude. Arianne Martell is gorgeous, rich, sensuous, and spoiled. Oberyn Martell was an insolent, arrogant, lecherous, jack-a-nape. Jon Snow was raised as a lord's son, adopted a direwolf, had thrilling adventures during which he broke every last rule of the NW and yet was pardoned to become their leader... a virtual king... and oh, by the way, he's destined to be the hero of the age. Robb Stark was a handsome young king. Danaerys Targaryen is beautiful, powerful, and destined to rule with her dragons. I could'nt give a fig about Dany, Robb, Jon, The Viper, Arianne, and BFS. The story that they are in is wonderful, but these perfect people bore me. And I never even mentioned any Tullys. I could go for hours on them! (Actually, Catelyn is now an intriguing chacter.)

The broken, the crippled, the scarred, and the outcasts are really fleshed out by GRRM. He has me cheering for Tyrion, Jaime, Brienne, Sandor, Davos, Pod, and Sam. Come to think of it, all of them have physical problems! All desire to be better people and to be part of a better world... but some are having more success than others.

Of course my preferences are not all cut and dried according to beauty and power. I like Kevan, but hate Bran. I know Bran and Jon are striving with all of their (and Hodor's) might to change the world, but they both just bother me with their incessant whining. When Jon faced the choice of sleep with Ygritte or have his throat slashed, I could have strangled him for complaining.

Maybe I am a jaded cynic, but happy shining people are so boring. I would hate to read about them.

I used to like to read about them when I was a juvenile and an adolescent. I loved Edgar Rice Burroughs' John Carter stories. He was a serious athkicker, he was handsome, he was a warlord, and he was loved by the most beautiful woman in the history of the solar system. But he was never crippled or maimed. He was glorious. I cannot read that stuff anymore

I've been wounded physically and attacked psychologically as an adult. Mayhaps this is why the Lannister brothers resonate with me. How do I make new relationships when I see myself as like Sandor... perfect from a certain angle but grotesque when seen straight on? Sandor can never look in the mirror and see his good side only. He is always reminded, constantly reminded of his repulsiveness.

If any of you have not seen Tysha's picture of Arya and Sandor (there is a thread with a link within the last six months), I suggest you do. It's not Rembrandt, but she shows Sandor in profile with his good side toward us. For a moment we forget his freakishness. For a moment he is not a monster. For a moment he is a man. Yeah, he's got problems. He's in the rain with a mean little girl that he's abducted. He's unemployed and on the lam from the law and on the run from everyone. He's got thousands of enemies who'd love to see him dead. Once he wanted a happy, shiny world... Now, revenge is his only motivation. This is a compelling character.

 

[the smiling weirwood]

I think we must disagree, the only characters I have found to be perfect, and thus utterly flat, are those like Jojen Reed who have no personality and serve merely as perfect backdrops.

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

I agree with everything Boaz and tSW have posted...even where they disagree.

Sandor needs a cause. More than any character he needs something to commit himself to because left to his own devices he is self-destructive to the extreme. Sadly I think he knows this as much as I do, hence his loyalty to Joffrey, Sansa and Arya in succession. He takes the fights of children as his own (Joffrey excluded) but tempers them with his own sense of self-loathing. He needs something to redeem his own childhood and prove he's better than the people around him. He talks tough but we know the truth...

So far he's been consumed by getting a chance to strike at Gregor. Thats been his cause, the hate, anger, sense of betrayal have consumed him and it shows in his outward demeanor. There is good inside Sandor but his mission drives it out.

I think if he found a cause to devote himself that at its core was a righteous endeavor he would slowly transistion to something else. He would never be "flat" and without an edge but I think we would be able to put him on the side of the heroes after he finds the right cause.

Dedication to the Boy King would have served....becoming Aryas protector full time, being Sansas sworn shield against Petyr, the sword arm of the church....any of these would have done....

My only fear is that Sandor will get to destroy the reanimated Gregor without finding a new cause and then be left with nothing inside to keep him from destroying himself.

 

[Qhorin Halfhand]

Arianne Martell is gorgeous, rich, sensuous, and spoiled. Oberyn Martell was an insolent, arrogant, lecherous, jack-a-nape. Jon Snow was raised as a lord's son, adopted a direwolf, had thrilling adventures during which he broke every last rule of the NW and yet was pardoned to become their leader... a virtual king... and oh, by the way, he's destined to be the hero of the age. Robb Stark was a handsome young king. Danaerys Targaryen is beautiful, powerful, and destined to rule with her dragons. I could'nt give a fig about Dany, Robb, Jon, The Viper, Arianne, and BFS. The story that they are in is wonderful, but these perfect people bore me. And I never even mentioned any Tullys. I could go for hours on them! (Actually, Catelyn is now an intriguing chacter.

I'd disagree that any of those characters were perfect. Arianne Martell was, as well as being spoiled, incredibly small minded, reckless, so on and so forth and ended up imprisoned for it. Most of the traits you listed for Oberyn are flaws and he died for his arrogance, Jon's one of the characters who has the most positive events occur in his life but he still has had to get over his inferiority complex about being a ******* and nobody liking him in training, wah wah wah. For me, the characters who are scarred and broken like Sandor or Lady Stoneheart are only slightly interesting, mirrors held up to people like Jon or Tyrion who try to do good things despite the flaws that could drag them down to a much lower level if they let them. The characters aren't perfect, they're flawed but that's what makes them more interesting than the usual "heroes" in many fantasy settings.

This is way off the topic of the most thrilling fight. I recently read The Hedge Knight and that book is mostly about fights and they're all really fun I think the high point is the description of the days jousting though, things like the Grey Lion jousting without a helmet and the Humfreys and so on.

 

[Thalador]

Perfect characters? I guess you haven't read The Lions of Al-Rassan. Made me want to vomit. I agree with Qhorin; nearly all the characters in ASOIAF exhibit significant flaws and experience inner struggles. Most - at some point - lack confidence in their actions. Just because they emerge triumphant from conflicts doesn't make them perfect. In fact, many don't (Eddard, Robb, Oberyn). To get where they are, "perfect" characters like Jon and Danaerys have endured much and surmounted personal obstacles.

 

[MrWright]

Thanks for the derailment everyone...I'm loving the direction this is taking

So far, I don't really see any character as "perfect".

The conflict between Stannis and Jon is becoming interesting (finally).

Now that Jorah is gone, the Dany story is relatively dry...until she meets up with Tyrion

I'm hoping the Hound isn't dead, but I'm not holding my breath waiting for his return.

So far, IMO, the character with the best direction is Jaime....of all the characters in the story, his changes and revelations are the best done. The revelation about him becoming the Smiling Knight rather than Ser Arthur was masterful.

Bran's story is the least interesting ATM...but has the potential to not suck depending on what direction he takes once he becomes whatever he's bound to become...(wizard or whatnot)

 

[Hilarious Joke]

I personally found Stannis a boring character, a character so twisted by his own sense of honour and his bitter feelings towards his brother that I can't really relate to him as a person. And perhaps that's at the heart of the whole thing we feel towards characters, its how well we understand them. I detested Jaime before his POV was added, but now I understand him and his motivations, he is one of the best chars (imho).

 

[the smiling weirwood]

You hit upon the reason Stannis is the sole character I dislike. I cannot relate to him. Every other character in the series, even Cersei, I can empathize with to some extent, some more than others. Except for Stannis. He is just so....

Agh, anyway, I can't express how deep my hatred for him is. He is boring. And selfish, and delusional, and childish, and utterly without redeeming qualities. I just can't relate to such an unfeeling, unmoving person. He is stubborn like stone and just as interesting. I can't imagine how such a person could exist or think, so I can't relate to him. Without being able to empathize with him I cannot see his side of events, and am thus forced to accept the narration of others as the truth, which is not a favorable light to see him in.

 

[MrWright]

I never harbored any love for Stannis other than the fact that he alone had somehow managed to cheat death in the game of thrones and stands as the rightful heir (as far as the Baratheon lineage goes) to the Iron Throne.

I had some respect for him for being so adherent to the laws and being fair. However, my interest in him has greatly waned since it seems like he's now just a puppet for Melisandre instead of his own man.

 

[Hilarious Joke]

What's the go with Melisandre anyway? What motivates her?

 

[Boaz]

HJ, that's the $60,000 question. We know that Stannis is not Azor Ahai reborn, why does she not see this? Or does she? If she does, then she has serious hidden agendas that we are not yet privy to and this heightens my tension.

Did I use the word perfect? Maybe I did... I'm too lazy to look it up. From my perspective, neither Arianne, Oberyn, Daenerys, Jon, Robb, nor Catelyn have suffered limb amputation, cannibalization, or being turned into barbeque. Oh they have emotional troubles... Boo hoo, my father, Lord Eddard, raised me with the finest education and training in the entire country, but he never legitimized me... Boo hoo, my father, Prince Doran, gave me everything I ever wanted, but he never told me he loved me more than my brother... Cry me a river.

I've said it before, I think that GRRM has done an admirable job by developing characters that we either love, hate, admire, despise, respect, or deride.

 

[Qhorin Halfhand]

Did I use the word perfect? Maybe I did... I'm too lazy to look it up. From my perspective, neither Arianne, Oberyn, Daenerys, Jon, Robb, nor Catelyn have suffered limb amputation, cannibalization, or being turned into barbeque. Oh they have emotional troubles... Boo hoo, my father, Lord Eddard, raised me with the finest education and training in the entire country, but he never legitimized me... Boo hoo, my father, Prince Doran, gave me everything I ever wanted, but he never told me he loved me more than my brother... Cry me a river.

I've said it before, I think that GRRM has done an admirable job by developing characters that we either love, hate, admire, despise, respect, or deride.

Technically Oberyn, Robb and Catelyn have suffered a reasonable amount but I take your point which is essentially that we all have different taste in our favourite characters and you prefer the *really* messed up ones