Book length - Is this a worrying new trend

[TheEndIsNigh]

I've just visited my local Borders book shop and found time to mouch about the science fiction fantasy section.

I found at least three titles written by people I'd never heard -suggesting new writers, that were well over 1000 pages.

I had trouble even picking them up never mind holding them to read.

My question is this:-

Is this a new expected normal length for a first book?

If it is, my 60000 words or so is looking pretty pathetic. At this rate I'll still be writing as they inject the embalming fluid. I'll have to pass it on to my sons, a kind of 'inheritance tract' that may come to print three or four generations from now.

 

[Zubi-Ondo]

I totally agree, and I didn't know it was getting that bad. I would guess you are talking about Fantasy. I am mostly a Science Fiction reader, although I did read The Mists of Avalon (Bradley) which was 800+ pages. It was a good book, so I didn't mind, but I don't normally have a lot of time to read so I tend to avoid the really long books. I just read "Deepness in the Sky" - Vernor Vinge, which was 600+ pages, and I felt that the story could have been told in less than 300 pgs. If your 60,000 word book is a page turner, I'm sure it's fine, and assuredly better than 1000 pages of s**t, if you get my drift.

I would also be curious to know if this is some kind of trend being foisted upon the writers by the publishers, but somehow, I rather think not. If it's 1000 pgs of great stuff, then my hat's off to the writer, but I suspect more often it's a reflection of what the writer is full of. (IMHO)

- Z.

 

[Urien]

I rather like very long books, as long as they don't get repetitive.

As I understand it, current trends are for longer books, minimum around 120,000 words. There are a few published authors around (fantasy and sf), Teresa Edgerton has published some very good epic fantasy and usually knows the right answer, or current trends.

 

[Omphalos]

I agree. I personally love short books that you can get into, get out of and get a great story. For some reason people think that bigger is better, but it aint always so.

 

[ctg]

1000 pages is roughly 400 000 words. There was a talk couple of months ago in the publishing forum, where Mister Jarrold said that in UK minimum Fantasy length is around 140 000 words while in SF it's around 110 000 word long.

Note that some of the writers can blather amazing amount, while not getting nearly anything in content wise, while others compress their action in much shorter piece of manuscript.

TheEndIsNigh, in your shoes, I would look for the smaller publishers, as your novel would be only 150 pages long.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

Thank you, Andrew.

Actually, it's not a new trend but has been the case for quite a while now. In the US there is a very slim chance of a new writer selling a fantasy novel that is under 100,000 words, if it's in the right sub-genre (something urban with vampires or a touch of sado-masochism, or both, for instance), but according to John Jarrold virtually no chance in the UK. The vast majority of readers want big books, and that's what publishers give them -- unless the author has already an established following, or fits into some convenient niche that is doing well at the moment.

For science fiction, length is not quite such an issue, but SF itself is something of a depressed market at the moment, and 60,000 words would be considered short even there.

At the moment, readers like stories that spread out, that have scope. A 60,000 word novel that has a tight, contained plot and is very well written might be a wonderful book, but it would lack the sweep that most readers are looking for. You just can't fit that particular quality into 60,000 words without some parts becoming much too thin.

 

[TheEndIsNigh]

A slight misunderstanding here.

I was happily slogging away on the old ivories and having got to 60000 words was feeling pretty pleased with myself

(Pauses for a smug look at himself in the magic mirror. Mirror smiles back with a big thumbs up).

I figured I was well on the the way to the 120000 ish target.

Then it woulld have been question of a simple phone call to a few eager publishers and walking into Smiths a couple of weeks later only to be mobbed by my adoring public.

But no! It seems now I have to churn out another half million words or so stopping only to buy a new hard drive to keep them on and renew my gym membership so I will be able to lift the weighty tomb.

The worrying part is will there might not be enough time in the short time we all have left.

I mean, I was hoping to fill in the two weeks solving world hunger, curing poverty and bring peace to the world. These thing will now have to put on hold and it's a crying shame.

 

[Overread]

Sometimes all is said in done in less - just because there is a "standard" does not mean that every works must comply to it. Though I tend to find that fantasy that is not a DnD or "traditional" in theme tends to work better with a longer book - as there is more space to develope the world and ideas within that world.
But if your tale is done, there is really nothing to stop you trying to get it out there - just make sure that it really is done to your idea of perfection - and though its painful to recive - be ready for regections (not saying that they are going to happen, but its not impossible )

 

[ctg]

LOL, and I thought I was in trouble.

*serves a pint of extra cold beer to TheEndIsNigh*

It's much hard then churning out your best, as you have to meet up with the standards that others had set for you. Why don't you just simply expand your story and don't make it stop after you have filled three books, say 140 000 each. If you get those published, the publisher at some point might bring out the omnibus version and then you can have your 420 000 word or 1050 page long book.

Seriously, man, have a bottle of whisky and think it over. The world isn't going to end any time soon, and you are not going to be in grave before you have done your book, unless you want to skip that part and move on to do something else.

Look at the Mister Banks, poor fellow had to struggle for a decade before he was published at some poor year of 1984, when people still bought 150 page long books. Today standards are what they are, and in Britain, the game is tougher then anywhere else, because of these literary geniuses.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

If you're planning on 120,000 words you have nothing to worry about ... so far as that goes.

But you generally have to turn out somewhere between 500,000 and one million words (counting other projects and/or rewrites) before you're able to produce anything that a publisher would consider buying.

Many people find time to squeeze that in during a busy lifetime. Those who don't ... well, they obviously have other priorities. A career in writing is not for everyone.

 

[ctg]

But you generally have to turn out somewhere between 500,000 and one million words (counting other projects and/or rewrites) before you're able to produce anything that a publisher would consider buying.

Teresa, why is that? I have my suspicions on the storytelling abilities, but is there any other reason?

 

[TheEndIsNigh]

*serves a pint of extra cold beer to TheEndIsNigh*

You serve a fine ale here innkeeper -

I would take you up on the offer of the whisky however, as I already mentioned I'm busy with world peace and I need a clear head.

... Having said that world peace may well be better served if I went on a right good bender.

As it is at the moment I have left plenty of hooks to expand my plot lines using extra characters and events however, I was hoping to exploit these in future episodes when I have the extra time afforded me as I laze about spending my first advance and yes slurping the occasional 25 year old bottle of scotch.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

Because like any other art there is an element of craft and skill, and that takes time and practice to develop.

It's not enough to have a good story, or even a great story. You need to learn how to balance the needs of plot and character, description, background, foreshadowing ... the list goes on. You have to learn how to use words effectively, so that they say what you mean and not something else. (And then, once you've learned all this, you have to realize that you're going to have to come up with a slightly different equation for every single story you write.) You have to come to terms with the fact that the story you carry around in your head may blind you to the faults of the story you are translating to the page. They aren't the same story; they never can be; they never will be. But the more you develop your craft the closer they'll come.

And there are so many things about writing that could be explained and passed on, if the human brain was constructed (which it isn't) to learn them by any method except trial and error. As it is, you have to teach them to yourself, the hard way.

All of this takes time, and a lot of writing.

 

[Hilarious Joke]

I have two little remarks to make.

1. Great advice Teresa! I hope you know that everyone on the Chron really appreciates the time you take to give us some of your insights into the writing world.

2. Theendisnigh - 'Inheritance Tract'?!?! HA HA AHA HA HA HA HA HA. That's gold!

 

[TheEndIsNigh]

Fear not fellow contributors. I have just seen an item on MagicBay for some old golf ball typewriters.

Does anyone have access to a local zoo and a banana plantation.

Teresa: I appreciate what your saying.

However I think the publishers are pushing for more output from the downtrodden just to get their pound of flesh. (skin and fingernails in this case).

I suspect whereas in the past 500,000 words would fill a fair few books, each with oportunities for writers to get their snout in the trough, nowadays publishers get the same output in terms bookshelves stocked with much less of the swill coming to the likes of us.

Well those of us that finish the course anyway.

HJ: If I can spread a little joy in the short time we all have left...

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

However I think the publishers are pushing for more output from the downtrodden just to get their pound of flesh. (skin and fingernails in this case).

This is a common misconception. But publishers would actually make more money selling lots and lots of shorter books (if enough readers would buy them). A book that is twice as long doesn't sell for anything like twice as much, and readers would have to pay quite a bit more to gain the same number of hours of reading pleasure.

Nowadays publishers get the same output in terms bookshelves stocked with much less of the swill coming to the likes of us.

It always distresses me when people talk that way. On the surface they seem to be castigating the publishers (always the easy target), but they're really disparaging the tastes of their fellow readers who buy those books.

(And lest anyone think I have a vested interest in this: my own books, with only one exception, have always been of moderate length. As a reader and a writer, shorter books would be fine with me.)


P.S. Thank you, Hilarious Joke. I'm afraid not everyone views my input in quite such a flattering light as you do.

 

[Zubi-Ondo]

Thank you, Andrew.


For science fiction, length is not quite such an issue...

Whew! Thank goodness.

At the moment, readers like stories that spread out, that have scope. A 60,000 word novel that has a tight, contained plot and is very well written might be a wonderful book, but it would lack the sweep that most readers are looking for.

So, it would seem that you are implying that the readers are somehow behind all of this? How do they manage to get their feedback to the publishers? I have never communicated any kind of feedback to a publisher about any book I've read, and I don't know anyone who does. Most likely it is based on the amount of sales for types of books, in which case it may be a very specific kind of reader we are talking about, and therefore a bit of a skewed sampling of the general public. I guess they don't care about us library borrowing, to-cheap-to-spend-our-hard-earned-cash-on-just-any-book types. I will buy a book if I borrowed it and liked it, got enough recommendations for it and it wasn't available at the library and I liked it, etc.
Ah well, The frugal be damned!

- Z.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

How do they manage to get their feedback to the publishers? I have never communicated any kind of feedback to a publisher about any book I've read, and I don't know anyone who does. Most likely it is based on the amount of sales for types of books, in which case it may be a very specific kind of reader we are talking about, and therefore a bit of a skewed sampling of the general public.

Readers give their feedback to publishers anytime they buy a book, Zubi. And of course it's a very specific kind of reader that publishers pay attention to: the one's who do buy their books and keep them in business. Would you really expect them to tailor their lines for anyone else? They'd go broke in a year.

When you check out a book from the library, you do send a teeny-tiny message. (More than you send if you borrow from a friend or buy your books used.) Libraries keep track of which books and authors their patrons borrow, and it effects what they order. But it's still a much smaller voice than the people who are actually out there and buying lots of books.

 

[TheEndIsNigh]

Teresa - It was certainly not my intention to distress anyone.

 

[chopper]

1. Great advice Teresa! I hope you know that everyone on the Chron really appreciates the time you take to give us some of your insights into the writing world.

seconded, HJ!

teresa's right in that science fiction does tend on average to be shorter than fantasy, (and i think that might be because sf explores ideas more than entire worlds by foot).

looking at my bookshelf (the current genre stuff only - most is in boxes in the attic), i don't have many truly short books there. Pratchett's Moving Pictures is 333 pages, David Weber's Short Victorious War is 376 pages, the Dr Who New Adventure "The Also People" (Banks homage, politely) is 289 pages. everything else is Heavy Weapons, and the fantasy volumes are mostly thicker than the sf ones.

i know that 90% of what i read is breezeblock-thick multi-volume epics, and that probably shapes the way i write too. but i've been reading it long enough that i do know (back to topic) its not a new trend.