Read Twilight, can't find anything better!

[RcGrant]

Some stories have changed the direction of civilisations. A story that's eagerly devoured by millions is never "that's all it is". (That's not to say I disagree with the rest of your argument.)

Absolutely, stories can change civilisations. But I don't think that those changes should hold the writer accountable.

 

[Wybren]

Actually I think that when your target audience is juvenile, which clearly Twilight is, you do have to think about how you present your work, and what messages may be taken from your work (regardless of if it is intended or not). The juvenile brain is still unformed and more susceptible to outside influences, written or otherwise. When writing for an adult audience, it is different, because our minds are already formed and we are not so easily influenced by things. You only need look how much marketing is directed at children and teenages to see how easily they can be influenced.

I'm not saying dont write something, just that when writing for a younger audience that perhaps it is good to be mindful of what message young impressionable minds may take from the story.

 

[RcGrant]

That was assuming she intended to write it for anyone of a specific age? I know where MY stories would be placed, but I sure as hell don't think of any specific message to a target audience. I write what I want to read. I guess...in my eyes the parents should be choosing what their kids read. That sure as hell isn't my job.

Edit to add: I could go on about this all day, but I'm going to bow out now before I sound like a broken record.

 

[Lioness]

Would the Stephenie Meyer books - 'Eclipse' and The Short Second Life of Bree Tanner be suitable for a 14 year old?

Yes, though I haven't read the second book you mentioned. You may want to check that she's read the first two of the Twilight series though, because Eclipse is the third. The fourth also has a little bit of vaguely described sex, but most 14 year old girls should be able to handle it.

On to the other discussion. I disagree with the types of things Twilight is said to promote. I don't see the Edward-Bella thing as an almost-abusive relationship. At no point is Edward what I would consider to be abusive. The "I hang around your room watching you sleep" is a tad creepy, but that's how I see it. Teenage girls could choose to see it as sweet, protective, or even just an odd personal quirk of Edward's. They're not necessarily going to carry around the ideal that being watched at night is desirable. If they do, the real world will soon knock it out of them - most 14 year old boys aren't equipped to sneak into people's houses at night and watch their daughters.
On the "No sex before marriage" thing. Is that really a bad thing? Sure, it's a little bit outdated, but at least she's not encouraging teenage girls to sleep around. The insistance on no sex before marriage is part of what completes Edward's character. He's from the 1900s, he thought that way. It completes his image as something frozen in time (unfortunately, nothing else in the story lends itself to this)
And I'm pretty sure that teenage girls aren't going to pick up that Bella is doing anything the can for Edward - there is no servile attitude. Romantically, she loves him so much that she wants to. Edward doesn't take advantage of this. He doesn't plot around it. I see no problem.

As with any novel, you can twist events, character traits, and pieces of conversation to make them seem more sinister.

Harry Potter is a book about three young people who eventually learn to kill things! It's horrible! They fight with people around them, and there's so much bullying in the books. I don't want my child to read this incase they think that is normal.

Etc.

Twilight wasn't intended to be sinister. It wasn't intended to impress moral values on young girls. While it may have had that effect, I wouldn't blame it on Stephanie Meyer. I wouldn't have marked it as aimed at anyone under 15, but the culture has seized upon it, and now 10 year old girls are reading it. That's hardly her fault.
I don't conform to the "I used to like Twilight, but since it's become so cool to hate, I hate it".

 

[Wybren]

Considering Twilight is about a Teenager it would be reasonable to think that she had a younger audience in mind when she wrote it.

Yeah parents of smaller children, I know I choose what I want my young son to read, but when you are getting up to teenagers, who think they know everything, and think they are all grown up, and think their parents are outdated, then there is little parental control about what they read.

It doesnt matter that there is no specific message that a writer intends to put in their work, sometimes it just happens that the story that is written comes across as such, regardless of the authors intent, and as I said before I think if you know your target audience is going to be that of an impressionable mind, and you are hoping that your book will be as sucessfull as Twilight or Harry Potter, then IMHO you have to think about what a young person may take away from that book (regardless of your intent)

Anyway that is just my opinion.

 

[RcGrant]

Considering Twilight is about a Teenager it would be reasonable to think that she had a younger audience in mind when she wrote it.

No offense, but that statement is completely without merit.

And as for HP, it was first written with an adult audience in mind.

 

[Wybren]

Not really, how many books have you read/seen that are about an teenager's romantic life is targeted at an adult market?

 

[Lioness]

I'm with Wyb here, most books with teenaged main characters are aimed at teenagers. Adults are likely to go "oh, they're so stupid. Why are they doing that?" when teenagers won't.

 

[RcGrant]

Not really, how many books have you read/seen that are about an teenager's romantic life is targeted at an adult market?

I'd say a fair few exist. More than I know of. Off the top of my head: Great Expectations, Lolita (though of course this isn't any typical love. Having said that, since Twilight fell under the abusive category, maybe I can get away with it here), pretty much any of the classical musicals, a great deal of Shakespeare. Wurthering Heights? Jane Eyre (technically). Rebecca. His Dark Materials contained love, though it wasn't a typical romance. The Notebook (she was 17).

I'm not particularly versed in traditional fantasy, but I am pretty certain we had a thread in the writing forum about this recently. Fairytales, of which romance and happy-ever-after usual features, were primarily aimed at adults. They were simply adopted as children's tales later.

As for marketing - of course Twilight was marketed towards teens, but I don't, for one second, think all books with teen characters were written FOR teenagers specifically. I know they're not - I'm writing one.

 

[RcGrant]

I'm with Wyb here, most books with teenaged main characters are aimed at teenagers. Adults are likely to go "oh, they're so stupid. Why are they doing that?" when teenagers won't.

I agree. Most are. That wasn't what was said, however.

I'm off to bed. Thanks for the debate, guys.

 

[Lioness]

Having said that, since Twilight fell under the abusive category

I'm still not getting this. I'm not seeing how Twilight contains abusive romance.

 

[Wybren]

"His Dark Materials" wasn't solely about the romantic life of a teenager, it had other themes, Most of the classics and fairy tales were written when a girl was considered marriageable at 15 and need to be taken into context as such.

If you look at modern romance books aimed at an adult audience the main protagonist is an adult not a teen.Of course not all books with teen characters are written for teens but more often than not, the ones that are are about the romantic persuits of a teenager are mostly written for teens. I have read books with teen characters written for a wider audience, many fantasy books have teens that are main characters, but those books are not written with the main theme being the love life of the teens.

Night RC, and thank you

Lioness, I think with Twilight the romance in it is not so much abusive as unhealthy. They are too obsessed with each other, Bella so much so that it clouds her better judgement IMHO.

 

[soulsinging]

Lioness, I think with Twilight the romance in it is not so much abusive as unhealthy. They are too obsessed with each other, Bella so much so that it clouds her better judgement IMHO.

Yeah, maybe abusive was too strong. But unhealthy at the very least. We're talking a pass on creepy stalking behavior, severe codependence, etc. Granted, part of the appeal may be that those things appeal to the histrionic drama of adolescence. It would be one thing if there was a critical lens turned on this sort of romance, but it's glorified and presented as ideal true love. I just don't like the idea of a book being promoted to young girls that implies that women are incomplete without a good man and should feel bad about and avoid sex outside marriage.

And I'm not advocating banning or free speech. Perhaps my problem is more with the marketers than the author per se. I'm equally alarmed at stories like the one in the UK about a store selling padded bras to children.

Someone mentioned His Dark Materials... I'm equally uncomfortable with those books being marketed to young children, and I'm on board with all the philosophies it espouses. But as I recall, there was significant critical attention turned on that book and its messages and it wasn't as aggressively pushed on young people as Twilight is. That's what bothers me about Twilight... it seems like nobody's looking at or questioning these things. Even its fiercest critics tend to limit themselves to saying she can't write very well. Nobody seems to bat an eye at the questionable mixed messages it sends.

I also think Lolita is an awful comparison to this book. Lolita has never been marketed to children or presented as an ideal romance that girls should read and seek to emulate (though Ed is older than Humbert... creepy). In addition, there's a lot more going on in Lolita than just the romance (if you can even call it that... it's more obsession, which is discussed often yet almost never when people talk of Twilight despite the relationship dynamic being almost the same). It can be read on many levels, Twilight cannot.

While I don't think authors have any duty to censor themselves, I think they do share some responsibility for the finished product and its marketing. Look what happened to James Frey when he let his publishers push him into marketing his book as an autobiography when it was largely a piece of fiction and he told them so.

 

[Chel]

I can't comment on the books themselves as I haven't (and won't) read them. I have read about them though, and even seen the first movie to satisfy my curiousity.

Regardless of that, I think us adults should focus more on the fact that youngsters today are reading rather than focusing on what they are reading. We also need to trust that these youngsters are quite capable of seeing and understanding the difference between fiction and fact.

 

[Lioness]

But see, a lot of the girls that read Twilight aren't reading because they like to read, they're reading because Twilight is "cool". I'm not sure they pick up any messages from the book, negative or otherwise.

As for His Dark Materials...I read it when I was maybe 11 or 12, and really loved it. I didn't notice any of the religious undertones (being brought up with a bunch of agnostics/atheists helps), and I thought it was a good story. They were my favourite series of books for about a year or so.

But Chel, I agree with your last comment, about kids actually reading. I talk to some people at my school, and they sometimes say "Oh, you don't party? What do you do with your time?"
I reply, "I read, surf the internet, etc."
Them (in a strange attempt to identify): "I do that too! Well, except reading. I don't read."
Me: "Why not?"
Them: "I dunno. It's boring."

So the fact that a series has come along that appeals to them and isn't boring is great, IMO. Similar to Harry Potter. Not the best literary fiction, but appealing to the masses.

And then the anti-Twilight thing started, and I can't take the books to school for fear of getting laughed at. It doesn't really stop me reading them, but I choose other material to take to school. Twilight remains my at-home light reading.

 

[JB_Dresden]

what do people like to read besides Twilight but kind of along the same lines?

 

[Runya]

I don't know exactly if this debate will continue... but I have something to say.

When I read the book, I hated how idiotic Bella acted. I hated the fact that she was so clumsy and dependant of Edward. I hated that she thought she wasn't worth anything.

What made Twilight one of my favourite books was Edward. Why does the book appeal to the full-of-hormones female population? Because of the perfect guy here.

Okay, so he's a little creepy. Doesn't that come with being a vampire already? Everything else about him screams romantic. And we, as teenagers, seek the good part of this story. The romance... the never-ending love... the sappy stuff.

Because WE DON'T GET ANY OF THAT IN REAL LIFE.

See? That's why girls love so much Twilight. It's Edward. Not Bella.

I hate Bella. -_-' She's the typical girl that makes my days grim. She is the living (or not so living) example of what I fight against -- dependant, stupid, and immature girls. Even if she takes her own decisions, she doesn't take the best of decisions.

And avoiding pre-marrital sex, in my opinion, was a great thing in the book. I don't get what's the fuss about that.

As for what I learnt from the book... nothing. It's just my little get-away whenever I'm feeling sad or lonely (which is already sad ). -- And I'm pretty sure it's like this for a lot of other girls.

 

[Wybren]

But see, Edward is creepy and stalkerish. His obsession with her is just as unhealthy as hers is with him. And speaking from experience it is not romantic. I dated a guy in highschool who was like that. Not only did he have to see me at school every day, he had to speak to me on the phone after school also. It got to the point where if I forgot to call because I was doing homework, or taking the dog for a walk, he would call at 10pm and interrogate me as to why I hadnt called. I spent alot of time wishing for it to end, though, and it took me months to work up the courage to end it because I was afraid of what he might do to meif I broke up with him.

If your looking for a good romance with some supernatural in it, read "Pride and Prejudice and Zombies" a classic with a side of zombie.

JB I think the girls at my work read series like Vampire Diaries by L.J. Smith, House of the Night by Kristen and P.C. Cast amd Vampire Academy by Richelle Mead. I cant say much on them as I havent read any, but the girls I work with dont like Twilight and say these are much better.

For vampire books I am a big fan of Anne Rice's Vampire chronicles, but they are a more adult read.

​

 

[Runya]

I'm not saying Edward is not creepy. I'm saying that fans overlook this and just look at the 'romantic' side of it -- or invent one, if you don't see any in it (which I doubt, because it's a romantic saga in itself).

Please, read cautiosly what I post. I don't even like Twilight that much. I just read it for the heck of it. I even find grammatical errors and find the writing style boring at times.

 

[Murtagh's_Muse]

Just to update this thread with some new stuff...
"Hush, Hush" by Becca Fitzpatrick
"Shiver" by Maggie Steifvater