Best Hand of the King

[Hilarious Joke]

Who was/is your favourite Hand of the King? Which do you think was/is the best in this role? Please tell us why!

I only listed the ones we really got to know in the series, but under 'other' would be a host including:

• Bloodraven (Hand of Aerys I)
• Lord Butterwell (Hand of Dareon II)
• Jon Connington (Hand of Aerys II)
• Qarlton Chested (Hand of Aerys II)
• Lord Rossart (Hand of Aerys II)
• Harys Swift (Hand of Queen Regent Cersei)
• Orton Merryweather (Hand of Queen Regent Cersei)

As for me, I'm going to go with Davos. He understands Stannis' quest for justice, but is much more realistic and merciful. He's also one of my favourite characters.

 

[devilsgrin]

can there be any better choice for this than Tywin? He was so good at his job under Aerys, that the Mad King fired him and stole his son for his own Kingsguard (bad move there)
Jon Arryn was a pathetic Hand. Allowing a man who was like his own son to go from prime of life warrior-lord to morbidly obese moron. yes Robert was king, but as the King's Hand no-one else is even able to say a harsh (ish) word to the king. Jon Arryn was a poor choice - the only logical choice aside from Ned who would have refused the position then (this would have been just after he and Robert had their falling out over Robert ordering assassins to hunt Viserys and infant Daenerys), but Jon Arryn was an elderly man even then, he would not have had the vigour to serve as the King's Hand.

Tyrion may have been brilliant in saving King's Landing, but he was never a true hand of the king. He was just Tywin's choice to stand in his place for a while.

Since i loathe Stannis so much, Davos' loyalty to this delusional egomaniac causes me to dislike him by default.

 

[Rainswept]

By all reports Tywin was outstanding as Hand. I considered Tyrion, but in the end you have to admit Tywin was damn good at this, especially considering he had to deal with the Mad King.

Still a scuzzbucket of a human being tho.

 

[Lady of Winterfell]

I also went with Tywin. I thought Tyrion did a good job as well, but seeing as Tywin was a good hand, and he did it much longer than Tyrion, I felt he got the edge. He proved himself over a longer period of time.

 

[the smiling weirwood]

I voted for other. My favorite Hand is Septon Barth. He's ancient history, but you can't beat a name like Septon Barth. Born a blacksmith's son and raised to Hand of the King. By all accounts he was one of the best to ever rule.

 

[Koopa]

Tywin wasn't fired, after hearing about Jaime becoming a knight of the kingsguard he himself quit.I actually just reread that Jaime chapter, and it seems to me that that one, was one of Cersei first machinations.

 

[Werthead]

There was also Baelor Breakspear, who was the Hand of the King until he inadvertantly got killed in The Hedge Knight. My vote would go to him.

 

[Qhorin Halfhand]

I am torn. I think people are too harsh on Jon Arryn, for starters. We see through Ned just how hard it is to control Robert's excesses. This is Robert's closest friend and he can't stop him wasting money on giant tournaments, shirking his duty to the realm or even convince him not to send assassin's after Daenrys. Robert even later admits all of his failings to Eddard, we can't really put those failings at Jon Arryn's door, Robert doesn't listen to anyone. Jon Arryn managed to keep the peace for the many, many years between Robert's Rebellion and his death and he did so without resorting to any of the more deplorable methods that Tywin uses, and despite the fact that he couldn't stop Robert bankrupting the realm or falling into gluttony, I think that's a pretty good job. We know he managed to make peace with Dorne when Oberyn wanted to raise the spears for Viserys. I can't think of any other incidents he handled personally off hand, but there may be others. However, I didn't vote for him because despite those indicators that he was a good hand, we never see that he is. But dismissing him as too elderly for the job would be a mistake. Tywin Lannister is old. Barristan Selmy is old. Being old doesn't make you useless, it makes you experienced.

Eddard Stark was the living image of a good hand but he wasn't the most competent one and the two things need to be balanced against each other. He conducted his affairs with a lot of honour and with the best interests of the realm at heart but ultimately he failed because he was too honourable and thus too easily thwarted. Nevertheless, I'd probably put him at a close second for my vote.

I actually voted for Davos Seaworth because he combines competence; pretty much every smart move that Stannis makes has been as a result of Davos' advice. He speaks the truth to his king even when it could mean his death and he is absolutely loyal BUT he isn't stupid and he is willing to be underhanded (Gathering of the King's Men to oppose the Queen's Men) and make stands even against the king when he's doing something wrong. I don't think he would thrive in the political setting of King's Landing but he is a very good hand in the situation he is in.

It might seem strange that I didn't vote for Tyrion as Hand since he had many of the things that Eddard/Davos had but I didn't vote for him ultimately because even though he did a lot of things right for the realm, he didn't do much at all for the rulers. He basically actively worked against Joffrey and his Regent. Admittedly because they are absolutely insane bastards but still, I don't think he was a good hand. He was a good ruler.

 

[Boaz]

Who was/is your favourite Hand of the King? Which do you think was/is the best in this role?

HJ, you've got two questions here and my answers are not the same.

Since the poll question is in regards to my favorite, I'll tell you... it's Tyrion. First, Tyrion is not really the Hand. He's Tywin's proxy. He's the Hand for all intents and purposes because Joffrey was weak and Cersei is not smart. He knew he'd be replaced sooner or later by his father... which is exactly what happened. Second, Tyrion has his own POV. Sure Eddard and Davos have theirs also, but I feel that so much more fascinating things went on during Tyrion's tenure. Third, Tyrion is simply my favorite character in this poll.

Your second question is in regards, as the title of the posts on this thread indicate, to the most competent Hand. This is a much more complicated issue. Different problems plagued the realm during the terms of these various Hands... and different qualities of leadership were required to solve them.

The POVs are used to affect our judgment of characters. Eddard and Jon were fairly selfless. Both seemed to have the vested interests of the kingdom in high priority. Davos also seems to desire justice. Like Jon and Eddard, he has an extreme amount of loyalty to his king. In contrast, Tywin is repeatedly called avaricious... by his own son! Yes, Tywin was competent in regards to the treasury, the military, domestic policy, and foreign relations, but it seems that he was also looking for opportunities to entrench his family at court. And after Aerys turned on Tywin, Tywin betrayed him to Robert.

Is this the truth or just a matter of influence from the POV? What was Tywin's big crime against Aerys? Oh yeah, he wanted to marry his daughter to the Crown Prince. But that's exactly what Eddard and Robert schemed to do! Tywin was fired, but Eddard got promoted!

Also, Eddard had a dislike for the economy and it seems Jon put the realm into ruin.

I think Tywin was the most competent Hand of the King.

Also, Davo's predecessor, Lord Florent was not mentioned in the list of Hands.

On a side note, I think it's interesting that neither Renly, Robb, Balon, Euron, nor Dany has nominated a Hand. As for the Ironborn, mayhaps it's not in their tradition. Mayhaps Dany has not really fleshed out her court nor decided that her kingdom is yet big enough to require a Hand. Robb was at war long enough to have discussed a Hand... mayhaps the Starks never had one in the past and mayhaps it was a bone to be offered as a bargaining chip for an alliance with Dorne, the Vale, or Highgarden. Renly quickly put together a large court complete with Kingsguard, councillors, and an army, but the glaring exception is a Hand. Now I could see Robb, Balon, Euron, and Dany wanting to personally rule, but Renly, imo, should not have missed the chance to have someone else "count coppers."

 

[Shacklock]

Eddard would have been the best in an ideal peacetime Westeros, Tyrion for the current timeframe though.

 

[Boaz]

But Westeros was at peace when Eddard was the Hand. What did he do?

1. He let his wife start a war.
2. He secretly warned his enemies of his intentions.
3. He allowed his daughter to leak the timing of his planned coup.
4. He put his trust in the most duplicitous man in the realm.

 

[Koopa]

In eddard defense, the realm was only in shadow peace, not real peace, the lannisters and baratheons where already busy scheming their plots for power.

You cant blame him for one of Catelyn numerous errors.

sansa was just being her usual stupid self (so far in the story she has been pretty dense.) (i blame catelyn for raising her a southerner, good thing she failed with Arya)

He had no one else to turn to at that moment.

He was stupid for not taking renly's offer, and he should not have warned Cersei like that (though i can understand his reasoning).
I never did understood why he took so few men with him south as well.

 

[TK-421]

I'm with Boaz on this one. To me, Tyrion, was the best Had (although a proxy one at that). Yes, yes, I will defend Tyrion to the end as THE best and smartest character in the series. But, with Tyrion and especially his POV, we saw best what it really meant to be a Hand. More so than Ned, who was plainly not cut out for the job. Ned was best made to for his role as Warden of the North.

Tyrion also cared about what he did and really strived to the best job and provide the best advice he can. The problem is that nobody at the receiving end really listened.

I considered voting for Davos as I also really like him. I respect him for standing up to Stannis and Melissandre, especially since this is the man who cut off his fingers. But, to choose between Davos and Tyrion, my vote has to go to Tyrion any day of the week.

 

[Hilarious Joke]

Thanks everyone, really interesting points raised!

HJ, you've got two questions here and my answers are not the same.

I did in fact realise that what I was asking in that second question wasn't quite the same as the first, I guess I really didn't want to limit the poll to a question of who was most competent on one hand (no pun intended) or who was just your favourite character who happened to be a hand, on the other. I guess I was trying to have my cake and eat it too, because having a cake is crap if you can't eat it...

I guess being honest I don't think anyone was a better hand than Tyrion, given the circumstances, but I just really like Davos.

If I can throw it out there, who do you think should be Danys' hand, if she ends up Queen of Westeros? I guess I would say Barristan Selmy, although I don't think he will live to see Danys take up her post.

Post 600!

 

[Boaz]

If I can throw it out there, who do you think should be Danys' hand, if she ends up Queen of Westeros?

Good question.

Barristan might, though I'm not sure there is precedence for holding both the offices of Hand and LC of the Kingsguard.

Normally a ruler would give it to a highly trusted advisor, but since Dany is conquering from the outside she might give it to a lord already in Westeros. She won't want to be seen as an occupier of foreign territory... so making Doran, Edric Dayne, Brynden Tully, or Littlefinger her Hand may give the sense of political, economic, and religious continuation.

Off the top of my head, I think a Martell is the quickest solution to the question of Hand. Doran is too ill to travel to KL. Arianne is too flighty and untrustworthy. Tristayne is too young. Quentyn may serve as Hand, but he may also be her husband. Even if Quentyn does not become hand, I think she could offer the position to one of the Martell's chief bannermen.

Others include, Victarion, Littlefinger, Black Walder, and Tyrion. I don't know if Victarion will offer himself and his fleet to Dany for free or if he'll name a price... her hand in marriage or her Hand in government. Littlefinger is a seriously pragmatic player. He can sense the way the wind blows... if Dany is strong, he'll bend the knee. Black Walder is currently fourth or fifth on the Frey line of succession, but he's been rising quickly. If he becomes Lord of the Crossing, mayhaps he'll look to be Hand. Even if he does not become Lord, his elder brothers or uncle may look to ship him off to Dany. Tyrion is Tyrion... his wits have led him on some wild adventures so far. Remember Tyrion's "father" was Hand twice... so why not Tyrion, too?

 

[Fandulin]

Hmmm...very interesting. I'm going to have to go with Eddard. To me, he exemplified best what Hand SHOULD be. Tyrion got more accomplished, Tywin was more brutally effective, but to me a Hand is supposed to be intelligent, contemplative, mindful of the good of the kingdom, a good counselor, have a firm grasp of right and wrong, and strong. To me, that was Eddard to a T. Unfortunately, he didn't have much of an opportunity to put a lot of that into action...

 

[Landroval]

Awise, awise from the grave...please pardon the necromancy but I wanted to express concurrence with Fandulin's statement above.

"Best" is a broad adjective and can be defined in different ways. Different hands had different strenghts and weaknesses. Tywin was strong, clever, capable but ruthless and corrupt. Tyrion was manipulative, artful and effective while at the same time being conscionable if not necessarily just, but nonetheless he was cruel and was tainted in the sense that he put his own interests before the realm. Ned was principalled, honourable, fair and compassionate. His downfall was that he was too compassionate and too merciful, and he was unwittingly betrayed, but he's the person I think who would have best served the interests of the realm and the people over time.

 

[No One]

Agreed with Qhorin/Kiwi/Landroval on several points.

Not to get side-tracked, but on the subject of Robert as King...well, it's clear that he wasn't made to sit the throne and never listened to anyone. That's what he wanted from his Hand, someone to handle the business of being a king while he drank, fought, and fu...you get the idea. What little we know about Rhaegar suggests he would've made a much better successor.

In any case, it's hard to judge who's made the best hand. I want to go for Ned. He was the perfect Hand for Robert, but he was brought in too late and his rigid sense of honour had no chance of co-existing with the level of corruption at court. He was thrown to the Lions, so to speak. Same thing happened to Tyrion, and he was way more willing to break or manipulate the rules than Ned. Even so, he wasn't willing to sink as low as Cersei and her assassination attempt at least gave her the time to "de-claw" the imp and take credit for his work.

I suppose being the Hand is a difficult thing when the Queen is a conniving whore.

 

[southron sword]

I think its hard to judge a best Hand. Mainly because of different conditions: different kings, different times, peace or war. I think Tywin, Tyrion, Davos and Jon Arryn were all good, for different reasons (as most of you have explained)

Jon Arryn did a good job, keeping the peace and i guess, keeping Robert whoring instead of fighting. He seems like a very fatherly man with a kind heart.
Davos is good because, it seems, he is the only one in Stannis' camp who actually has any sense of what is going on. the rest are all Rhllor this and Rhllor that. He isnt afraid of telling Stannis the truth, and he has a good head on him.

If you put it down to the situation then i think Tywin and Tyrion are the best. Tywin had to deal with a mad man who didnt trust anybody, and Tyrion had to deal with family (who hate him), the mob (who hate him) and war against 4 kings.

As for "Other". Why would you want an Other as your Hand?

 

[The Imp]

I think to determine "the best" hand we first need to identify the factors that would contribute to a Hand's ability to be successful. I'd think that the list would include, but not be limited to these

Astute politically- A good Hand must understand whom the players are, what side they are on, and how each poses a threat or potentially helps his King. He must also understand the more general political landscape-potential allies, enenmies in other Kingdoms, the mood of his own Kingdom, etc. etc.

A good Diplomat- a Hand or King can't always rule with an iron fist or expect everyone to automatically toe the party line "just because"

A Keen sense of wartime tactics/strategies- being able to defend the realm in the King's absence, etc.

The ability to command respect

The ability to be ruthless, if needed

Limited ambition- should nbot pose a threat to the king, now or ever.

So, as for the list in the poll.

Eddard clearly falls short in a couple of vital areas- He had the ploitical saviness of a naive child, and he was too kindhearted to be ruthless. Both of these are proven by the fact that Cersei chewed him up and spit him out when someone else would have easily beated her.

Tywin- almost a perfect Hand except that he allowed his hatred for Tyrion to influence how he treated and utilized him.

Tyrion- Had everything excpet for natural charisma. Would have been perfect if you put his brain in Jaime's body

Jon Arryn- Allowed himself to be poisoned. DIdn't recognize how dangerous his research was, even when he had enough information to figure that out.

Davos- Can't command enough respect and IMO would have trouble ruling in the absence of Stannis. Maybe not enough political savviness as well

Can we add Cersei to the list of hands BTW? If so, she made a lousy one, having been unaware of how dangerous The Sparrows had grown, to her at least temporary demise.

SO for me, it would be either Tywin or Tyrion. I think I'd have to go with tywin, although if I was King and Tyrion was my hand i'd be fine with that