Best Hand of the King

[TK-421]

Call me crazy but I don't buy the arguement that Tywin was that great of a Hand. He may be goos at some things but he is the Hand that presided over rebellion, open war and the murder of the king he was sworn to protect by his own son. Tywin is an opportunist at best, which is evidenced that he opened the gates to King's Landing only after he knew the rebellion had won.

Tyrion would not be Tyrion without his dwarf body. If you took his brain and put it into Jaime, you get a smarter Jaime but not a sensible and somewhat compassionate Tyrion, which is brought on by his experiences.

It all depends what you value in a Hand. Ruthlessness, the ability to govern, cunning or value for your fellow humans and doing what right for realm. Call me an idealist but I would rather the later than the former.

 

[Landroval]

It all depends what you value in a Hand. Ruthlessness, the ability to govern, cunning or value for your fellow humans and doing what right for realm..

Yes I agree with this. The problem with this question is that we may all judge on different criteria. Are we looking for Abraham Lincoln or Richard Nixon? I voted for Ned in the same way that I would vote for Lincoln.

Incidentally, The Imp's list of qualities requisite for the job is a very good one but it isn't all inclusive and I particularly noted that it lacked a sense of right and wrong and of justice. Tywin lacked this and this caused Tyrion to pop him. If you lack common decency you make even more enemies than you do normally and it's a weakness politically as well as administratively.

Also probably the most important thing of all was the support and trust of an established King. Tywin had this for a long time under Aerys before it all fell apart. Note that Ned's fall came only during the turmoil immediately after the King's death. And even though he was too merciful and compassionate to deal the killer blow, he arguably might have weathered the storm nonetheless, had he not been betrayed.

I certainly think that, given a sustained run under a relatively stable King, e.g. if Robert had lived another 20 years, then Ned would have been the best governing Hand.

 

[The Imp]

Yes I agree with this. The problem with this question is that we may all judge on different criteria. Are we looking for Abraham Lincoln or Richard Nixon? I voted for Ned in the same way that I would vote for Lincoln.

Incidentally, The Imp's list of qualities requisite for the job is a very good one but it isn't all inclusive and I particularly noted that it lacked a sense of right and wrong and of justice. Tywin lacked this and this caused Tyrion to pop him. If you lack common decency you make even more enemies than you do normally and it's a weakness politically as well as administratively.

Also probably the most important thing of all was the support and trust of an established King. Tywin had this for a long time under Aerys before it all fell apart. Note that Ned's fall came only during the turmoil immediately after the King's death. And even though he was too merciful and compassionate to deal the killer blow, he arguably might have weathered the storm nonetheless, had he not been betrayed.

I certainly think that, given a sustained run under a relatively stable King, e.g. if Robert had lived another 20 years, then Ned would have been the best governing Hand.

that was certainly a glaring omission. part of what makes Tyrion such an appeling character (to me at least) is his humanity and ability to think about how his actions affect others, in other words, his sense of right and wrong

A quick note to TK- I literally meant putting tyrion's mind/psyche into Jaime's body. I realize that his being a dwarf shaped whom he became, but I was just making an argument in absolute terms. I wasn't trying to be realistic.

 

[Hilarious Joke]

Can we add Cersei to the list of hands BTW? If so, she made a lousy one, having been unaware of how dangerous The Sparrows had grown, to her at least temporary demise.

I thought Cersei was a regent, rather than a Hand?

Tyrion- Had everything excpet for natural charisma. Would have been perfect if you put his brain in Jaime's body

Interesting, but I do not think this is an important point for a Hand. The King is the face that the world sees, and the Hand is the...hand, who actually runs the realm. A Hand doesn't, and perhaps shouldn't, have a celebrity status in the realm.

Perhaps Tyrion wouldn't have been prosecuted the way he was if he was in Jaime's body, but I don't think this is a reflection on his adequacy as a Hand.

Anyway, I agree Imp with everything else you said.

 

[devilsgrin]

I thought Cersei was a regent, rather than a Hand?



Interesting, but I do not think this is an important point for a Hand. The King is the face that the world sees, and the Hand is the...hand, who actually runs the realm. A Hand doesn't, and perhaps shouldn't, have a celebrity status in the realm.

Perhaps Tyrion wouldn't have been prosecuted the way he was if he was in Jaime's body, but I don't think this is a reflection on his adequacy as a Hand.

Anyway, I agree Imp with everything else you said.

i actually think that personal charisma in what amounts to the Prime Minister of a nation is essential. Tyrion can be as brilliant as he is, but with his face, AND his personality, he had no chance at being Hand. Lets not forget, he ISN'T Joffrey's Hand, he is simply the only person Tywin trusted to do the job in King's Landing whilst he was off subverting enemy Lords into betraying Robb. (Tywin having an exceptionally clear understanding of who his children were, and where their talents lay (his only miscalculation comes right before Tyrion shot him... which was in the gut, reflecting Tyrion not actually doing anything other than pulling a trigger... no courage needed there))

Tywin on the other hand DOES have personal charisma. The people of King's Landing seemed to have a great amount of respect for him... his wealth, looks (he would no doubt have been at least reasonably handsome) and well known ability to rule the Kingdom with as much stability as possible under a Mad King made him an excellent Hand.

As much as Ned is likable, his personal charisma was critically disabled by his sense of Honour... in politics there is Honour, and then theres "honour" Poor Ned...

 

[Hilarious Joke]

Good point about Tywin.

I guess the Hand is a public figure, and it's people like Varys and Littlefinger that work behind the scenes.

 

[devilsgrin]

thats it HJ exactly. You have your public figures, and your bhind the scenes ones. The Hand of the King is a VERY public figure, 2nd only to the King, perhaps equal with the Queen. The rest of the Small Council would have varying degrees of public exposure, clearly Renly was much beloved by the public, and the High Septon and Grand Maester would have been widely known, and regarded. But the masters of spies, of ships, of coin, etc would be less well known, and their personalities and personal qualities would be less important on a public stage.

 

[The Imp]

thats it HJ exactly. You have your public figures, and your behind the scenes ones. The Hand of the King is a VERY public figure, 2nd only to the King, perhaps equal with the Queen. The rest of the Small Council would have varying degrees of public exposure, clearly Renly was much beloved by the public, and the High Septon and Grand Maester would have been widely known, and regarded. But the masters of spies, of ships, of coin, etc would be less well known, and their personalities and personal qualities would be less important on a public stage.

The Hand has as much power as the King is willing to give him/her OR as much a a theoretical King has, which would be pretty much unlimited. Tyrion as Hand had much more power than Ned Stark did, and for 2 reasons. Robert was a powerful King and Ned was literally his hand rather than brain, while Tyrion was the King's brain because the actual King was too young to rule. Tyrion in effect had as much power as a King.

How much power any Hand is given/allowed to have clearly has an impact on how well they can serve the realm and ultimately be rated as a hand.

 

[Hilarious Joke]

I get the feeling though if Eddard had worked out earlier how to play the Game he would have had as much power as Robert because Robert trusted Ned completely.

But to really have power you need people like Varys on your side. I think Cersei really misses a Varys to keep her in the know (Qyburn isn't nearly as good).

 

[southron sword]

Actually, an "Other" as a hand would be mad. If it was a friendly Other then no one would mess with you. Can Others speak though? He couldnt give advice. Maybe as Hand he wouldnt be so good. One of the Kingsguard maybe...

 

[Hilarious Joke]

Looks like you've just made the start of an awesome Kingsguard!

An Other, a warg, a Faceless Man...