That's not a particle accelerator...

[Quokka]

This is a Particle Accelorator....

Ok so alot of whats below is actually the ATLAS detector and not the accelorator itself.

But hopefully later this year,they're saying November at this stage ,(and no i don't know who they are) the Large Hadron Collider (LHC) at Cern will finally get kicked over.

Without getting too carried away, this is definately one of the more exciting prospects in science in a long time. The technology being developed to handle the massive amounts of data alone is impressive.

At the very least, during its lifespan the LHC is predicted to find or provide supporting evidence for new particles and it may just give clues to a whole lot more.

I like this quote published in the New Scientist (No 2588)

"People always ask me, 'if you discover a new particle, how will you distinguish supersymmetry from extra dimensions? says Ian Hinchliffe, who leads one of the Atlas teams. "I'll discover it first, I'll think about it on the way to Stockholm, and I'll tell you on the way back."

One last thing, there's something a decidedly humorous that what may be the most advanced experiment in the history science, revolves around the basic concept of smashing things together as hard as you can and watching to see what falls out .

 

[j d worthington]

Re: That's not a particle accelorator...

Yes, Lisa Randall has quite a bit to say about the hopes that the LHC will provide enormous amounts of evidence for various particle theories, as well as causing us to both reevaluate and restructure others...

Exciting times indeed!

 

[Culhwch]

Re: That's not a particle accelorator...

Looks like the innards of the Death Star. Where's Lando and Wedge...?

 

[chrispenycate]

Re: That's not a particle accelorator...

See that little guy at the bottom, there? No, it's not me; I was in a group of other oglers. It's a long way underground; in case of nuclear war I'm considering moving in.

 

[Dave]

Re: That's not a particle accelorator...

There was much talk of this being the cause of the end of the world, but I haven't heard anything about it for some time. According to the website:

It planned to circulate the first beams in May 2008. First collisions at high energy are expected mid-2008 with the first results from the experiments soon after.

Well, it is already mid-May, but no demonstrations, no 'The End is Nigh' placards.

 

[TheEndIsNigh]

Re: That's not a particle accelorator...

There was much talk of this being the cause of the end of the world, but I haven't heard anything about it for some time. According to the website:


Well, it is already mid-May, but no demonstrations, no 'The End is Nigh' placards.

Oy!!!!!

No ones turning me into cardboard!!!

However, it will all end in tears.

Anyway, since the end is comming, does it really matter what triggers it.

 

[Pyan]

Earth 'not at risk' from collider

Our planet is not at risk from the world's most powerful particle physics experiment, a report has concluded.

The document addresses fears that the Large Hadron Collider is so energetic, it could have unforeseen consequences.

Well, that's reassuring, isn't it? I just hope it's a better forecast that "Man will never travel into space", and "I cannot see any use for a computer in the home".....

BBC NEWS | Science/Nature | Earth 'not at risk' from collider

 

[Dave]

Re: Earth 'not at risk' from collider

Or as accurate as these predictions:

“Space travel is bunk.”
— Sir Harold Spencer Jones, Astronomer Royal of the UK, (two weeks before Sputnik orbited the Earth)

"X-rays will prove to be a hoax."
- William Thomson, Lord Kelvin

"Radio has no future."
- William Thomson, Lord Kelvin

"I can state flatly that heavier than air flying machines are impossible."
- William Thomson, Lord Kelvin

“I think there is a world market for maybe five computers.”
— Thomas Watson, chairman of IBM, 1943

“The bomb will never go off. I speak as an expert in explosives.”
— Admiral William Leahy, U.S. Atomic Bomb Project

“There is not the slightest indication that nuclear energy will ever be obtainable. It would mean that the atom would have to be shattered at will.”
— Albert Einstein

 

[R. P. Lane]

Re: Earth 'not at risk' from collider

The first delay was precipitated by an accident in March 2007 during stress testing of one of the LHC's "quadrupole" magnets.
A statement carried on the Cern website from the US laboratory that provided the magnet stated that the equipment had experienced a "failure" when supporting structures "broke". It later emerged that the magnet had exploded in the tunnel, close to one of the LHC's most important detectors, prompting the the facility to be evacuated.

************
This is really scary stuff. If they can have a 'failure' before it's even started how do they know for a fact that there won't be another 'failure' that will start something they can't finish?

Perhaps there is a 'physist' minded person here that can explain something to me. From my understanding (which is not great when it comes to physics) a black hole sucks in everything around it. If this is true then why can't one black hole suck in other black holes to become one gigantic one that will then suck in everything around it, including the machine it is in?

Can anyone answer?

 

[ktabic]

Re: Earth 'not at risk' from collider

Black holes don't just suck stuff in, they also emit energy in the form of Hawking's Radiation. Even the largest of black holes will eventually evaporate away to nothing (it just needs really long periods of time) - the small ones that might be created in the LHC will be gone in moments.
There is also the chance that any black hole created by the LHC will be unable to suck in anything since the emitted radiation will counteract the gravity pull of the black hole.

 

[R. P. Lane]

Re: Earth 'not at risk' from collider

Black holes don't just suck stuff in, they also emit energy in the form of Hawking's Radiation. Even the largest of black holes will eventually evaporate away to nothing (it just needs really long periods of time) - the small ones that might be created in the LHC will be gone in moments.
There is also the chance that any black hole created by the LHC will be unable to suck in anything since the emitted radiation will counteract the gravity pull of the black hole.

Thank you for your reply ktabic. I won't pretend that I understand it but since you do...............do you feel it's a safe project for them to be playing with underground?

 

[Pyan]

Re: Earth 'not at risk' from collider

Thank you for your reply ktabic. I won't pretend that I understand it but since you do...............do you feel it's a safe project for them to be playing with underground?

Never mind underground - do you feel it's a safe project for them to be playing with anywhere on the planet?

 

[TheEndIsNigh]

Re: Earth 'not at risk' from collider

It has to happen.
I've been warning you all.
Not that I'm one to say I told you so.
cos I won't be here (but then niether will anyone else).

 

[R. P. Lane]

Re: Earth 'not at risk' from collider

Never mind underground - do you feel it's a safe project for them to be playing with anywhere on the planet?

But the report, issued the European Organization for Nuclear Research, says there is "no conceivable danger".

Hello pyan.

It's the word "conceivable" that bothers me. (I know I don't have to explain the word to you). They didn't 'conceive' the first failure so if this is how they really feel about it why are they going ahead and doing it?

 

[chrispenycate]

Re: Earth 'not at risk' from collider

Hey, you lot should worry; you'll find me in the CERN car park just about every weekend (I take a bus, and a friend picks me me up there.
But underground or in space, almost no difference in the danger. The size of black hole we are considering (a lot smaller than an atomic nucleus) means that traversing the Earths core is no more difficult than a smoke cloud.
And if the particles (yes, very heavy particles, but you can't think of anything that small as a physical body) start with greater than escape velocity (which they will do, a lot more) they're not going to stick around; they'll be spreading out through the cosmos in almost no time.
Hawking evaporation depends on a couple of mathematically likely but unproven scientific theories have to be right; perhaps little black holes do hang around, gaining a neutron here or a cosmic ray there, down through the billenia? Perhaps all that dark matter they can't explain away is the result of millions of other species doing their CERN experiments down the ages, producing a fog of eetsi-tiny absorbers across the cosmos…

They didn't 'conceive' the first failure so if this is how they really feel about it why are they going ahead and doing it?

There is a lot of difference with some American company building sub-specification components (which means traffic roundabouts have now got big blue superconducting magnets – to focus the attention?) and relying on a physical theory which your experiment might prove right – or not. Still, when they exploded the Bikini hydrogen bomb it was considered there was a one in a thousand chance it would start a chain reaction in Earth's oceans, making us into a very small (and very temporary) star. Of course it didn't; there had been lots of events far more energetic than that, in Earth's history.
And I don't believe the Forces Motrices can generate enough energy for a genuinely dangerous black hole.

 

[Sephiroth]

Re: Earth 'not at risk' from collider

What Chris said. I wonder where this story came from in the first place?

By which I mean, whose idea were these world swallowing 'snowball' black holes? The most powerful cosmic rays that strike our upper atmosphere regularly have energies on the order of one billion times greater than those achievable at CERN, or Fermilab (or anywhere else with a big particle accelerator I haven't heard of...surely Japan has one?)

Those are thought to have been propelled toward us by big black holes. Ones more worth worrying about, except that they're quite far away.


I've been looking forward to the LHC going online for years, I'd hate to see it stopped because of misplaced public safety fears.

 

[Dave]

Re: Earth 'not at risk' from collider

I wonder where this story came from in the first place?

According to that great font of knowledge that is Wikipedia:

On 21 March 2008 a complaint requesting an injunction against the LHC's startup was filed before the United States District Court for the District of Hawaii by a group of seven concerned individuals. This group includes Walter L. Wagner who notably was unable to obtain an injunction against the much lower energy RHIC for similar concerns.

The plaintiffs have demanded an injunction against the LHC's activation for 4 months after issuance of the LHC Safety Assessment Group's (LSAG) Safety Review originally promised by January 1, 2008, to review the LHC's most recent safety documentation, and a permanent injunction until the LHC can be demonstrated to be reasonably safe within industry standards. The US Federal Court scheduled the trial to begin June 16, 2009, long after the planned date for the first collisions in the LHC.

So, it does appear like scaremongering.

I've been looking forward to the LHC going online for years, I'd hate to see it stopped because of misplaced public safety fears.

The important word there is "misplaced". Since no one can really tell what will happen with any certainty, there is a risk of a catastrophe. It is a non-zero risk, even if the risk is incredibly low. How we deal with very high impact, but very low probability risks, the so-called black swan events, is a great modern moral dilemna. It should not be simply dismissed, but it isn't something that worries me.

What people should really be worried about are the really big risks - for instance, the one in two chance that they will be involved in a fatal road accident during their lifetime.

 

[PTeppic]

Re: Earth 'not at risk' from collider

As you say, it's like comparing 1 in 3-4 of getting cancer (with each one having different chance of dying "before your time") with the chance of asteroid impact before your life expectancy runs out (and potentially killing everything on the planet).

As far as I can tell from the material, if it DOES all go horribly wrong, we won't be in a position to know much about it anyway.

 

[Sephiroth]

Re: Earth 'not at risk' from collider

Interesting stuff. Thanks, Dave. Seems that in this case, the complainers have an axe to grind against this type of research more generally.


I agree, it's a non-zero risk.

Of course, the chances of me spontaneously tunneling from here to Los Angeles...or Alpha Centauri, or Tatooine...are also non-zero.

 

[Erin99]

Re: Earth 'not at risk' from collider

I don't like the idea of scientists attempting to control that which they know very little about, and what is possibly unstable, especially when their equiptment is already going wrong...

And yes, I don't consider myself very scientifically-minded. But shouldn't the people on this planet have a say on what goes on here? I wish someone would lay the facts down for us so we know what could, should, and what hopefully shouldn't happen when they begin experimenting.


Edit: Hi and bye, Seph.