That's not a particle accelerator...

[Dave]

So, is there nothing particularly new or original in these detectors; the difference with the LHC is its size and power; particles this size have never been made to collide before with such force?

 

[Celeritas]

So, is there nothing particularly new or original in these detectors; the difference with the LHC is its size and power; particles this size have never been made to collide before with such force?

they are looking mainly for a few things like supersymmetry, the higgs boson and so forth but that's just the first in a long list of things. or at least that i've heard of.


the size of the particles involved depends on the experiment. do you mean mass or actual literal size?


gotta go bounce around the bulk for a bit...

*the light fades to black*

 

[Dave]

the size of the particles involved depends on the experiment. do you mean mass or actual literal size?

yes, I meant mass.

 

[Sephiroth]

It's energy rather than mass. The protons have a given rest mass which never changes, but as they are accelerated towards the speed of light (which they can never reach), they become more and more energetic. So particles with this much energy have never been made to collide before.

The detectors are not revolutionary in themselves, though, no.

The RHIC (Relativistic Heavy Ion Collider) in Brookhaven National Laboratory, New York, has done experiments similar to those which ALICE will detect before, but at lower energies, with limited success. The RHIC has other benefits which will mean it is still useful once the LHC supersedes it, however.

As Celeritas mentioned, the heavy ion experiments collide lead nuclei, rather than bunches of individual protons.

I believe the Tevatron accelerator at Fermilab, Illinois has been used to conduct b-hadron experiments before too (like the LHCb), but again, at lower energies and thus with less chance of making accurate measurements of these particles, or discovering new physics.

 

[Celeritas]

I was getting to that. you did it again. a girl has to sleep sometime....

Seph, are you involved in scientific work? or are you just an obsessive nerd like I am? =)


Dave if you're interested in this stuff, you should pick up a few books.


*this space is waiting for Celeritas to return and put a list of books here for dave.*

 

[chrispenycate]

If anyone needs anything from CERN I can pop in there: Most weekend I go out and garden a t a friend's house (practically dead centre of the old LEP ring, so quite a long way eccentric on this new one) and take the bus out to the CERN bus stop, where he picks me up.

Unfortunately the physicist with whom I used to sink an occasional beer, and discuss things, has been a little heavily occupied these last couple of months…

 

[Sephiroth]

I was getting to that. you did it again. a girl has to sleep sometime....

Seph, are you involved in scientific work? or are you just an obsessive nerd like I am? =)

Sleep? Well, sure, but a girl named swiftness might have posted before she slept...?

It's the second one, though. Obsessive nerd. If you put me in a high-energy physics department I'd be very excited, but also rather lost. It's mathematics that really lets me down. I wish I had the ability to get my head around the raw maths, but the gnarly stuff is beyond me, I'm afraid.

But I'm desperate to know the answer to whatever the question is (I'd like to know the question, first). I've spent some time reading between the lines in physics papers where I can't make head nor tail of half of what is written, hoping that a few of the secrets of the universe might somehow find their way into my head regardless. I just want to know everything, is all. I need to know what...this...is... *gestures all around*

I guess it's something similar with you?




Chris, are visitors welcome at CERN, or is it because your friend is a scientist that you can get in? I've always wondered what would happen if I rocked up in Geneva and asked to see the goodies...?

 

[Celeritas]

Sleep? Well, sure, but a girl named swiftness might have posted before she slept...?

It's the second one, though. Obsessive nerd. If you put me in a high-energy physics department I'd be very excited, but also rather lost. It's mathematics that really lets me down. I wish I had the ability to get my head around the raw maths, but the gnarly stuff is beyond me, I'm afraid.

But I'm desperate to know the answer to whatever the question is (I'd like to know the question, first). I've spent some time reading between the lines in physics papers where I can't make head nor tail of half of what is written, hoping that a few of the secrets of the universe might somehow find their way into my head regardless. I just want to know everything, is all. I need to know what...this...is... *gestures all around*

I guess it's something similar with you?




Chris, are visitors welcome at CERN, or is it because your friend is a scientist that you can get in? I've always wondered what would happen if I rocked up in Geneva and asked to see the goodies...?

oh yeah it's the same. my grandfather was a physics professor who filled my head with photons and quarks and neutrino stars starting at a very young age. he gave me a transcript of a series of lectures by micheal farraday called the chemical history of a candle and I was lost in the obsession from that point on. he also was the one who fist dubbed me celeritas.

and it had been three days since i'd really slept(burning the proverbial candle at both ends working on my story) so yes I needed some snoozing.

chris: oh my word I would kill to be where you are! even if only to get maria spiropulu's autograph for the express purpose of turning the faces of my friends on a science forum puke-green with envy(they voted her the sexiest physicist alive)

i'll have to come up with an abridged (extremely abridged) list of my questions I would ask.

that is too cool!

 

[Sephiroth]

Ah, and suddenly your avatar makes sense, rather than being a random, cool image (I've always liked that picture).

I was given an astronomy book when I was about eight or nine, which was one the things that did the trick.

And I'm working on my story too, but perhaps that's not such a big coincidence here.




I'd just like to walk the 27 km with my mouth open, staring in awe. Plus, it'd be good exercise.

 

[chrispenycate]

Chris, are visitors welcome at CERN, or is it because your friend is a scientist that you can get in? I've always wondered what would happen if I rocked up in Geneva and asked to see the goodies...?

There is a permanent exhibition (Microcosm) held in the big wooden football outside, and there are fairly frequent open days.

But I don't get to go into any of the high tech bits; the cafeteria is hardly space age (mind you, I've been visiting occasionally since their computers had tape drives) and little robot tractors to change tapes).

But if you do come across, make e deviation to the studio, won't you? It's hardly as high tech as ATLAS, but we make a decent cup of tea.

Come to CERN – Visits

 

[Sephiroth]

I certainly will, yes, and thanks for the invitation. I prefer my tea without high-energy protons anyway.

Perhaps I could even avail myself of the facilities? I'm no worse than Celine Dion, at any rate...


And thanks for the link, the tours do look interesting -- especially 'Discovering Antimatter'. I'd like to meet an antimatter man. I'd shake his hand.

 

[Celeritas]

obsessive geekdom is awesome.

I burn for more info on CERN. especially some kind of in depth tutorial on the actual inner workings of the LHC.

that reminds me of something.

my favorite pop physicist built a particle accelerator at his parent's house when he was a teenager. and it worked. he goes into some detail about how he did it in one of his books. what a cool thing. i'm half tempted to try it.

though apparently everytime he would turn it on, it would short out the electricity in the entire house.

this question comes to mind: How did he talk his parents into letting him do it and even helping him by rolling a bazillion yards of wire that stretched across a football field for the requisite magnets!?

lucky S.O.B.


that might be cool.

*fades away, burning with thought*

 

[chrispenycate]

Well, I built a linear accelerator when I was at university; scavenged the wire for the coils from a gazillion TV deflector coils (No flat screens back then)

Mind you, I built it round a plastic drainpipe, since I didn't have to evacuate the air.

Question; if one shakes the hand of an antimatter man, do not the two of you instantly (or as close to instantly as Einstein will allow, which is pretty close) convert into energy? That'd be a bit inconvenient next to Geneva.

 

[Celeritas]

I think I want to try it.

gosh wouldn't that be fun! your buddies coming over on a weekend to drink some brews and screw around with an accelerator.

I think i've discovered my next big "for the hell of it, to see if I can do it" project.

perhaps even a photojournal thread to document it.

chris if you had any pertinent info to send me i'd be eternally grateful!

must make plans!

(vanishes)

c

 

[Celeritas]

correction:

it was a betatron. a 2.3 million electron volt betatron. still, very cool!

now where do I get sodium-22?

 

[Sephiroth]

I wouldn't mind giving that a go either. Definitely fun, although I'd probably electrocute myself. Did yours work, Chris?

Cele, I'd love to see that thread. Heh.



And answer: I daresay more than Geneva'd be a tad inconvenienced by that. I weigh eighty kilos.

 

[Celeritas]

so I called a close friend who's working on his physics doctorate and consulted with him for quite a bit.

there's a fair amount of research to be done but we're going to do it because we're both rather insane.=p


i'm looking into the parts we're going to need and as soon as we have all the pieces of the puzzle i'll post that photojournal thread.

this is going to take some time and a bit of cash so it will be a while.

i'm totally in giddy child mode.

updates as soon as there's something to update.

 

[TheEndIsNigh]

obsessive geekdom is awesome.

I burn for more info on CERN. especially some kind of in depth tutorial on the actual inner workings of the LHC.

that reminds me of something.

my favorite pop physicist built a particle accelerator at his parent's house when he was a teenager. and it worked. he goes into some detail about how he did it in one of his books. what a cool thing. i'm half tempted to try it.

though apparently everytime he would turn it on, it would short out the electricity in the entire house.

this question comes to mind: How did he talk his parents into letting him do it and even helping him by rolling a bazillion yards of wire that stretched across a football field for the requisite magnets!?

lucky S.O.B.


that might be cool.

*fades away, burning with thought*

I seem to remember a "Horizon" program some years ago about the project (when it was first muted) I have this memory of animations of the detectors and the like. It may have been a documentary on the previous collider and ended with the outline of the Cern project

I take it you've read things like the following

http://th-www.if.uj.edu.pl/acta/vol37/pdf/v37p1039.pdf

AS for parents allowing children to do it how far should parents limit their child's enthusiasm for science.

"Dad Mom, would you mind if I built particle accelerator in the yard"

"Well I don't think thats a good idea junior, We may have to knock the garage down and buy uncles Bills house first"

"OK Pop, I'll get the sledgehammer"

"You do that junior I'll get Bill on the phone"

Or :-

Dad Mom, I read this great article on a thing called the Manhattan project and I'd like to give it a try"

Well... Well you know junior thats some experiment you're thinking of doing and it could be dangerous. How about we do the Appolo program instead."

kind of thing

 

[chrispenycate]

A linear accelerator is not a particle accelerator - except in so far as all matter is made up of particles - it is a bits of metallic junk accelerator, that I think is now called a rail gun. Being macroscopic rather than microscopic, if you get mach 2 out of it you're quite happy, so it can run on 50 Hz 3 phase with no difficulty. And the air molecules just get shoved out of the way (a bit noisily)

Your particle accelerator wants quite a few orders of magnitude more speed, so will require a sophisticated power supply, and a darn good vacuum. Trouble is, every experiment you do, you risk destroying the vacuum, and having to pump it out again; it's not like a TV tube, emptied once forever.

And getting a vacuum that good is not a trivial problem; while writing for the 1632 work group I suggested that in that universe going back to thermionic valves ("vacuum tubes" to our transatlantic cousins) rather than attempting the materials purity to make transistors was more likely to give fast results, and gathered a group of school children to make some, and my point. I invented the mercury vapour lamp, but couldn't get a hard enough vacuum to get decent amplification, without using an expensive (and way beyond the technology I was aiming for) laboratory pump.

That said, I wish every success to the project; I would have liked to have been involved, had I been twenty years younger (I've rarely been accused of excess sanity, either)

And if you do find a way of making a decent low-tech vacuum (not what you're looking for, I know, but…) please tell me; there are some people I'd like to astonish.

 

[HardScienceFan]

Chris,you never cease to astound me

Sleptons,gluinos
SUSY

ah the wonderful world of subatomic physics