A Terrible Secret

[Jeroam]

In Game of Thrones the Arya POV chapter that opens with her chasing cats, then getting lost, she runs across the wizard and the juggler overhearing their conversation. The end of it fades out with
"The ones you need are hard to find...so young, to know their letters...perhaps older...not die so easy..."
"No. The younger are safer...treat them gently..."
"...if they kept their tongues..."
"...the risk..."
In A Clash of Kings, when Stannis's letters reach King's Landing, Cersei demands, "Any man heard speaking of incest or calling Joff a ******* should lose his tongue for it." Tyrion responds with, "When you tear out a man's tongue, you are not proving him a liar, you're only telling the world that you fear what he might say."
This is not the first time Cersei threatens to cut out tongues. In fact, there are several times that cutting out tongues is mentioned across the books. Lots of times.

Here is my question: What is the terrible secret that cost Ser Ilyn Payne, the King's Justice, his tongue?

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

I'd tell you, but then I'd have to cut out your tongue.

 

[jnr_turtle]

We find out at some stage (I don't remember when) that whilst Tywin Lannister was still the Hand for Aerys, Ilyn Payne boasted that it was actually Tywin who ruled the Seven Kingdoms. Of course, Aerys didn't agree and had his tongue out for it.

 

[Culhwch]

Yeah, I remember that. I think it's in a Tyrion chapter and spoken in relation to Podrik Payne.

But a good point still, Jeroam. I'd read that Arya part just the other day, and I think the bigger question is to what use Varys is putting these 'fifty birds' - obviously mute young children who can read and write? Varys referes to his spies as birds, I seem to recall, but these children wouldn't make ideal spies. Something sinister is going on, and it irks me that I have no idea what... Of course, that just about sums up the whole series thus far.

 

[Raven]

Culhwch: agreed that children have their limitations as spies, but...

Varys knows a lot of things that have taken place in private conversations. He also knows of tunnels around the Red Keep that are small, even to Tyrion, and run behind the walls (see the end of ASOS). And he has a need for children who can read and write, but not speak to anyone.

What other conclusion can we draw, except that he is using these kids as spies to listen in on and report conversations overheard from the tunnels?

 

[hodor]

Actually I can easily see how children would make great spies.

 

[Jinglehopper]

Robin Hobb stole this from GRRM quite extensively, both the tunnels within Buckkeep castle and the using children as spies.

Anyway, I think children (especially bright ones who can read and write) are excellent spies because they can easily escape notice. And easily escape if they are noticed, lol.

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

The only weakness I see in using such children as spies is that one normally wouldn't want all those secrets written down. There's too much risk involved. Unless, of course, said children are schooled in a secret language or some sort of code.

 

[hodor]

Robin Hobb stole this from GRRM quite extensively, both the tunnels within Buckkeep castle and the using children as spies.

Anyway, I think children (especially bright ones who can read and write) are excellent spies because they can easily escape notice. And easily escape if they are noticed, lol.

Not really Jingle. This children as spies has been used before and it is not an uncommon thing to see in such epics that include political intrigue. I know alot of people are eager to point to certain authors and say "that was a martin thing"; the issue is what the author does with the idea. This isn't the first time I have heard a complaint about another auther stealing from Martin... not in this case and not in the other case either.

 

[Jeroam]

jnr turtle wrote:
We find out at some stage (I don't remember when) that whilst Tywin Lannister was still the Hand for Aerys, Ilyn Payne boasted that it was actually Tywin who ruled the Seven Kingdoms. Of course, Aerys didn't agree and had his tongue out for it.

Sorry mate, good memory, but I don't buy it at all. That's the version of the story we hear in one of Jamie's POV chapters while he's remembering Cersei urging him to take the white so they can be together in King's Landing. Cersei gives that above quote, but she says she heard it as second hand gossip from some other court ladies.
It has to be something else. Something to do with Tywin relinquishing duties of the Hand, he and Cersei return to Casterly Rock as Jamie goes to East.
The most bizarre explanation I've ever read on a message board, was the Joanna + Aery's = Tyrion and that's why Payne lost his tongue. That's just bloody ridiculous. I explain Tyrion's deformity as exposure to dragons eggs, Just like Daeny's child was reported to be deformed and stillborn after she had rested with the dragon's eggs so many times. The price to be paid, the life required to birth the dragons isn't the funeral pyre sacrifice, its the unborn baby life force sacrifice. There had to be dragons eggs in King's Landing. That was the last place dragons were seen in the West. The Targ's couldn't get them to hatch, but dragons eggs don't just disapear. Tywin was hand for 20 years, don't you think he would have smuggled eggs out knowing Aery's is mad? Where else would there be dragon's eggs? Payne knows, that, or something just as big.

 

[hodor]

That is a very interesting theory you got there.

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

I explain Tyrion's deformity as exposure to dragons eggs, Just like Daeny's child was reported to be deformed and stillborn after she had rested with the dragon's eggs so many times. The price to be paid, the life required to birth the dragons isn't the funeral pyre sacrifice, its the unborn baby life force sacrifice.

I'm going to have to go ahead and disagree with you there, my friend. Dany's child was reported to be deformed and stillborn after she had been brought into the tent while Mirri Mas Durr was doing her witchcraft. The dragons were born a while later, when Khal Drogo finally died, and Dany had Mirri thrown onto the pyre. Dany's baby was a grotesque monster- Tyrion's just a dwarf.

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

In addition, the exposure to dragon's eggs, if it were so harmful, would have led to a lot more deformed babies in the royal or noble families, don't you think?

 

[Jeroam]

Yeah, you're probably right. I was getting nuts on that last post. Way, way out there. I still say there have to be dragon's eggs scattered throughout Westeros though. Definitely some on Dragonstone, and probably some in Casterly Rock. I think Joanna held one during Tyrion's pregnancy, and that's the explanation as to why Tyrion has such a fascination with dragons and fire as written toward the beginning of Game of Thrones. I also think there is far more to the story of Ser Ilyn Payne than we've been told.
Who knew what, and when? Tywin was hand for 20 years, he knew the most of any character living at the beginning of the books. Vary's came to King's Landing during this time, and he knows plenty he hasn't revealed yet. Payne and Barriston are the only other charactera still living at the end of Storm of Swords who knew all of what happened as the rebellion broke out. Jamie was there, true, but he was the low man on the totem pole and a bit too young to understand everything, but he'll be the POV chapters that give us insight into those times in Feast for Crows.
The maesters called it the War of Five Kings, and they were mistaken. I think its all still the aftermath of Robert's Rebellion. Who sits the Iron Throne consumes most of the books, but I don't think that that's the driving story arc. The struggle against winter, the Others, that's the overall story arc and the series will end when its been decided. The secondary driving story arc is the mystery of Jon's parents/House Stark because it will tie into the struggle against winter. We will learn the truth, probably when Daeny brings the dragons home. The third tier story arc, the one that binds these first three books together providing motivation to the characters and influencing their choices would be 'who killed Jon Arryn.' I think if there had been as much time between Clash of Kings and Storm of Swords, as there has been between Storm of Swords and Feast for Crows, these message boards would be dominated by Arryn's murder and not Jon's parents.
Again, me ranting and being long winded and throwing crazy ideas out there. Sorry about that.

 

[hodor]

Agreed on the Arryn thing. This is what got the story started in the first place and is very neglected in the forums.

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

I'm wondering what terrible secret Ilyn Payne would know that he can't simply communicate via writing, just like Varys' little birds? I think he just had a big mouth at the wrong time.

 

[hodor]

I'm wondering what terrible secret Ilyn Payne would know that he can't simply communicate via writing, just like Varys' little birds? I think he just had a big mouth at the wrong time.

I agree Arya. Ilyn said something in the past to get his tongue yanked. It's so simple for him to just somehow write or us hand language to communicate something he wants to say. As far as I know GRRM had done extensive research in history to write these novels; tongue pulling was a common practice back then. I believe this to be just a "thing" that happened and not a significant sign of things to come.

 

[dwndrgn]

Not really Jingle. This children as spies has been used before and it is not an uncommon thing to see in such epics that include political intrigue. I know alot of people are eager to point to certain authors and say "that was a martin thing"; the issue is what the author does with the idea. This isn't the first time I have heard a complaint about another auther stealing from Martin... not in this case and not in the other case either.

Absolutely true. Who has ever heard of a castle that didn't have secret tunnels?? No self-respecting castle could live without them.

As for children as spies, Hobb has everyone from children to whores to nobles as spies, not an exclusive army of children spies. I'd say you're reaching to say she stole these ideas from GRRM.

Ok guys, back to topic, sorry for the interruption

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

I agree Arya. Ilyn said something in the past to get his tongue yanked. It's so simple for him to just somehow write or us hand language to communicate something he wants to say.

Indeed. It would have been easier to give him to Vargo Hoat for complete silencing, but why keep him alive? Obviously he has his uses.

I'm guessing whatever caused the removal of Ilyn's tongue may be the reason why poor Podrick is afraid to talk.

 

[jnr_turtle]

I always thought Tyrion turned out as a dwarf because Lady Joanna was Tywin's cousin... Hmmm...