Aragorn and the One Ring

[Syphon of Oor-Tael]

I forgot it's legal to marry your cousin in certain parts of america. My bad. :B

 

[Pyan]

Brief foray OT...
It's legal in 26 states, apparently - as well as in every country in Europe, Mexico and Canada...

Cousin Couples - Facts about cousin marriage


Aragorn is the grand x 62-nephew of Elrond - ie, there are sixty-one generations between Aragorn and Arwen. I imagine that the percentage of Elros's blood carried by Aragorn would make the union fairly safe, genetically speaking.

 

[HareBrain]

Its legality or otherwise in certain parts of modern America is irrelevant. Tolkien was writing decades ago, when cousins marrying was generally regarded as acceptable. (Remember that incest is defined by custom, not biology.) But in any case, Aragorn wasn't Arwen's first cousin, but her hundredth cousin or something like that** - the chance of increased birth defects, even if such things existed in the Elven population, would be miniscule (even with first-cousin marriages in humans, the increase is only the equivalent of a woman giving birth at age 40 rather than 30).

Your bad was to state that Aragorn's marriage to Arwen is (a) incestuous and (b) makes Tolkien "not as wholesome", both assertions which are, in my considered opinion, a bit silly.

**edit: apparently her sixty-third cousin (thanks Pyan!)

 

[The Judge]

I think technically it isn't 63rd cousin, but first cousin 62** times removed. (A grandchild of my first cousin, is my first cousin twice removed.)

And of course, Tolkien knew perfectly well of the relationship between them because when Aragorn first meets Arwen and tells her who he is, she says 'Then are we kin from afar.'

J

** or 63. Or possibly 61. I got a bit lost when I ran out of fingers. Hey, I'm not an accountant, OK?

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

. . . but most importantly his deeply embedded goodness (for want of a better word) may make him the only one capable of being the master of the Ring

Isildur was, perhaps, as brave and noble as Aragorn. His early deeds were quite heroic. He would have -- and should have -- been a shining example to Men all down through the ages, but he made that one mistake, and went down in history as a failure. Aragorn, of course, had one great advantage, which was that he had Isildur's example before him.

We don't know how long it would have taken the Ring to corrupt Isildur, but evidently not soon enough to suit Sauron or that part of Sauron's essence that was in the Ring, since the Ring betrayed Isildur to his death after a comparatively brief time. Tolkien made it clear in his letters that anyone who held the Ring would have been corrupted by it eventually, so that has to include Aragorn. What we don't know is how long "eventually" would be in this particular case. Long enough, probably, to make Sauron nervous.

But Sauron was also disconcerted because Aragorn had Narsil, reforged as Anduril, and Sauron had good reason to dread that sword.

Someone (I'm not going to go back and look, sorry) said something to the effect that if Gandalf took the Ring he would essentially become Sauron. But Tolkien made it clear (also in his letters) that would not happen. The Ring corrupts the nature of the person who holds it, but it doesn't change their nature. Gandalf, he said, would still be good, but that goodness would become self-righteous and tyrannical, he would force the people of Middle Earth to serve his good by robbing them of their free will, and to enslave people in that way would make Gandalf worse than Sauron, because it would make good as abominable as evil -- whereas with Sauron good and evil remained what they were.

It would be interesting to know what characteristic in Aragorn the Ring would have magnified and corrupted. Sam, for instance, wanted to make little gardens all over Mordor (I'm imagining window boxes full of tulips and white carnations at Barad-Dur, and the Nazgûl in straw hats, each cultivating his own small vegetable patch -- a charming, if somewhat bizarre mental image), and probably would have ended up making everyone into gardeners whether they wanted to be or not, and all the woodlands would be cut down and put under cultivation, and ... well, let's just say that Sam would not have been a conservationist. Slaves would be wearing themselves to the bone laboring in his fields and his greenhouses. There would, however, be plenty of "taters," and that would be some consolation. What Aragorn's obsession might have been would probably never have been known, because the Ring would have found away to get him killed before it had time to develop.

 

[Boaz]

Good comments, Teresa. I always assumed Sauron's rush to attack Gondor stemmed from his fear of Aragorn rallying the Dunedain. But maybe Sauron attacked swiftly to push Aragorn into revealing himself to the Ring and making the Ring desert him.

 

[Arwena]

Perhaps in the end Tolkien was saying that no mortal could resist the temptation to power of the one ring.

 

[paranoid marvin]

It always struck me as odd that there is virtually no mention of what the Ring can actually DO. We know that it renders the wearer invisible - whether they want to be or not - and that is all. I mean does it blast out fireballs , or blow foes to their knees (as in the film) ? Does it allow the user to conjure objects out of mid-air , or create armies? It certainly doesnt make the wearer invulnerable , as Sauron had already found out.

 

[KESpires]

It controls the other ring bearers I assumed. But I imagine that is with its master wearing it.

 

[paranoid marvin]

It controls the other ring bearers I assumed. But I imagine that is with its master wearing it.

Yeah , I assume it controlled humans and dwarves , but did Sauron command the elves I wonder?

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

He did not command the Elves, because they did not use the rings as they first intended. The Ring gave power according to the power or stature of the wearer; Sauron used it to gain mastery over the minds of others. Stronger individuals would resist his domination for longer periods of time, but in the end he would be able to control their minds (although they might not know it). This was how he destroyed Númenor, by seducing the king and enough of the other people into doing what he knew would bring down on them the wrath of the Valar. The Númenórean's were immensely superior and strong-willed compared to ordinary Men. With the Ring, Sauron (or any other sufficiently powerful being) could have gained dominion over the minds of the men of the Third Age with far less trouble and subtlety than it had taken him to gain a powerful influence over the men of Númenor.

Even before the Ring, Sauron seemed to have a strong native ability of persuasion and deception. That was, after all, how he tricked the Elves in the matter of the Rings to begin with.

 

[Boaz]

Even before the Ring, Sauron seemed to have a strong native ability of persuasion and deception.

That's like saying fish have an instinctive ability to swim.

Teresa, thanks for another good post. I always thought that Sauron was afraid of Aragorn... Aragorn had incredible will power. Even without the Ring, Aragorn wrenched the palantir of Orthanc free from Sauron's grip. We saw how effortlessly Sauron dominated Pippin... Gandalf told us that Saruman was ensnared by Sauron while using the palantir... Denethor could not use his palantir as he saw fit, he only glimpsed what Sauron showed him. So Aragorn's rebuff sent Sauron into a tizzy. If Aragorn could reveal that kind of will power without the Ring, then, with the Ring, he could certainly rally previously neutral nations to fight for him... or even sway Sauron's allies to switch sides.

Gandalf once told Pippin, I think, that the blood of Numenor ran true in Aragorn. That's the blood of Fingolfin, Turgon, Idril, Thingol, Melian, Luthien, Beren, Huor, Tuor, Dior, Nimloth, Elwing, Earendil, and Elros. All of them were opponents of Morgoth. Beren eluded Sauron's army for years. Eventually, Sauron captured Beren, but could not break him. Sauron was defeated by Luthien and Huan. Sauron knew how the heroes of the Noldor, Teleri, and Edain foiled even Melkor, so he knew that Aragorn, descendent of the man who defeated him, could pose a huge obstacle.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

That's like saying fish have an instinctive ability to swim.

Well, we have to remember that Sauron's original impulse was as an organizer and efficiency expert. Get it done, get it on time, and get it in under budget.

When that didn't work, he used his wiles. (Or, well, in the old days, turned into a wolf and bit you.)

Sauron knew how the heroes of the Noldor, Teleri, and Edain foiled even Melkor, so he knew that Aragorn, descendent of the man who defeated him, could pose a huge obstacle.

Yes, I think he did see Aragorn as a huge obstacle. Not a permanent obstacle, but one that could potentially cost him much, much more time than he wanted to waste.

 

[paranoid marvin]

Aah , so the Ring enhances our skills . So the ring made Sauron more persuasive , whilst in the case of hobbits and Gollum , it made them more stealthy by making them invisible. This makes sense in that Sauron presumably isn't (and certainly in the film isn't) rendered invisible when wearing his Ring - but why was Isildur made invisible when he wears it?

 

[devilsgrin]

isildur invisisble... perhaps, with Sauron's death (dispersal), the Ring relied on the very deceitfulness implicit in keeping the Ring at all. Isildur seemed to covet the ring immediately after he put it on, and covetousness of that scale could easily lend to jealousy so profound that Isildur wanted the ring for himself, and for no other to even see. hence when used, invisibility... a precendent perhaps the Ring used to ensnare Smaegol... and even Bilbo to a less powerful extent - since the inherant innocence and decency in Hobbits would be somewhat more resilient to the lures of shiny gold things...
it may even have been that The Ring was trying to hide until Sauron was strong again... as it appears to have done rather successfully. And what better way that to make yout bearer invisible.

 

[Hilarious Joke]

I always wondered why Smeagol got corrupted so quickly and easily but Bilbo and Frodo didn't...

 

[paranoid marvin]

I always wondered why Smeagol got corrupted so quickly and easily but Bilbo and Frodo didn't...

Possibly because Smeagol chose to murder to keep the Ring , whilst Bilbo chose not to , and of course Frodo was given it. Also by the time Bilbo found Smeagol he had spent a countless amount of time alone,in the darkness , surviving by killing goblins and eating uncooked fish; if the Ring hadn't corrupted him , then living under such conditions certainly would have. It's amazing , and shows his resilience that he wasn't entirely insane by this point.

 

[devilsgrin]

yes, its definitely due to the manner in which Smaegol took the ring from Daegol. Idildur took it in a similar manner as well... hence his own rapid corruption.
Smaegol's resistance to ultimate corruption may stem from that part of Smaegol that felt guilty about killing Daegol... he was afterall something not much different to a Hobbit... so for 500 years he managed to retain at least part of him mind... resulting in his multiple personality disorder. the reprehensible (but unquestionably intelligent and cunning) Gollum, and the almost childlike Smaegol whom Frodo draws back to the surface.

 

[Hilarious Joke]

I guess I was more wondering why the Ring made Smeagol kill for it whereas Bilbo and Frodo didn't really show any maliciousness - but now that I think about it, Bilbo just found the Ring and Frodo was given it.

In any case, thanks marvin and grin.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

Aah , so the Ring enhances our skills . So the ring made Sauron more persuasive, whilst in the case of hobbits and Gollum , it made them more stealthy by making them invisible.

No, the power that the One Ring enhanced was that of dominating the minds of others -- but only in proportion to the power and the will to dominate that the individual already possessed -- undoubtedly because he had poured so much of himself into it, and that power of domination was the thing he had come to desire most, as well as the very purpose for which he had created the Ring. But Hobbits were not bossy, and they valued a certain amount of independence, which is why there was so little government in the Shire, and the same could probably be said for Gollum's people, the Stoors, who were part of the ancestral stock of the Hobbits. In that way, the Ring did not have much to work with.

Invisibility seems to have been a power given by all the rings of power (except, seemingly, the Elven rings, which Sauron never touched), and that is why it took so long for Gandalf to discover that Bilbo's ring was the One Ring, instead of one of the others. Perhaps this is because the rings were meant to cause the creatures who wore them to permanently fade into the half-world the Nazgûl came to inhabit. But Dwarves and Hobbits (and proto-Hobbits, like Sméagol) were either resistant to fading in this way, or made use of the rings less frequently than did the Men who became the Ring Wraiths.

And I think it is important to remember that the Ring did not corrupt Isildur. At least I don't remember anything in Tolkien's other writings which indicates that he fell into evil ways during the brief time he possessed it. Once he had it, it filled him with a lust to keep it, but he did not kill for it. He cut off Sauron's finger in the midst of battle, and having already done so, he took the Ring (or so he convinced himself) as weregild for the deaths of his father and brother.

Even with the Nazgûl, we don't know how long it was before the nine rings gained complete control over them, or what they were like before he gave them the rings -- that is, the extent to which they were corrupted, or if they were already evil. Tolkien said nothing about the history of the Wraiths before they had the rings and nothing about them afterwards, not until the Witch King turned up in Angmar much later -- any information available on the internet about who they were and why they accepted the rings comes from a game and is purely invented by somebody else.

Were the Wraiths originally of Númenorean stock? If so, it might have taken a long time before the rings utterly corrupted them. We just don't know. Of course the One Ring was stronger, but so was Isildur strong in his resistence. He was one of the Faithful who had already withstood Sauron's influence on Númenor. And as we don't know how long Isildur might have held out, we can't guess how long Aragorn might have done.

The big question as far as Aragorn or any other character is concerned: Once the Ring had corrupted them into wanting to dominating others and given them the power to do so, what is it they would have used that power to forced everyone else to do. What was Aragorn's hidden and suppressed lust?