On Creating Imaginary Worlds: Fantasy

[Primitius]

The trouble with the orange peel is that the cuts are generally in the oceans, and it's not clear at all about the distance between continents. On the other hand, a Mercator projection distorts distances near the poles enormously. How about doing a pair of Mollweide maps, one for each side of the planet?

that sounds like my best bet! thanks very much!

 

[Essmund]

I have a cultural problem with my story. I'm messing around with a culture based on the celtic culture in Britain in say 200 B.C. Thing is that means there are only a few cities/towns, and these are very limited in size. So I came up with a religious spot serving as a gathering-place for people in that region, yet I'm a bit doubtfull of this system. Does anyone thinks it's a viable way? In it's purest essence it means that you've got this stretch of land on which some hundred-two hundred people live, and these gather at set dates (most likely of some religious background, yet to be decided) to have fairs where they can trade goods and such.
Would love to have some feedback on it before I use it.

 

[Culhwch]

I don't know about the possible historical accuracy of such, but to me it sounds like a realistic idea. It comes down to execution, as is always the case, but I can't see it being hard to convince a reader of the situation...

 

[chrispenycate]

I don't see it giving any problems; the basic system has been used successfully many times in human history, and still is in some nomadic cultures.

Holy spots, and need for justice and gossip, evidently, but don't forget the need for exogamy; it's a cattle marked for marriageable youngsters, trading in genes; and an attempt to keep a relatively homogenous culture and language structure (and minstrels, however hard they might try, can never quite manage either of the above goals.

 

[Essmund]

Hmm I'll keep that in the back of my head, thanks a lot for the tip

 

[Robin Goodfellow]

Hello. I have a question involving foreign languages in fiction. Two of my main characters in my wip speak this language and I have it fully fleshed out (Not to Tolkien-esq levels but enough that I can say basically anything that needs be said) anyway my question is how often should I render the language in it's true form, and how much should I translate it to english for reader convience. Obviously I translate it in cases of full blown covnersation where everyon speaks it, but if the two chaarcters are speaking amongst themselves would it be awful to have them speak in the true form of the language?

I hope that question makes sense :<

 

[The Judge]

You refer to translating for 'reader convenience' but it's more than that, surely, unless you are planning on having a glossary at the back. Do you want the reader to remain in ignorance of what is being said? If so, are you hiding something of importance? Because that to me seems to be cheating the reader. On the other hand, if the dialogue is of the inconsequential 'How are you doing, mate?', 'Not so bad, and you?' variety, then you ought to be asking yourself searching questions as to why it is there in the first place.

As importantly, whose POV are you in at the time? If it is the POV of someone who doesn't speak the language, then yes it should be left untranslated, since he won't have the first idea of what the others are saying. But, having said that, why transcribe it at all if he doesn't understand it? Why not have him looking from face to face as they jabber/witter/hiss/purr or whatever? If, on the other hand, the POV character can speak the language, then you ought to translate it, as it will be familiar to her and she will know what is going on.

On a personal level, I know that some people think that it helps with immersion into the fantasy world, but for me more than the odd word or sentence of incomprehensible goobledegook is a reason to put a book down. I have a very low tolerance for it!

By the way, the above is predicated on the foreign language being one you have created, in view of your Tolkien comment. If it is a real language, eg French/German, then you would probably be allowed a little more leeway.

 

[Robin Goodfellow]

Of Course a Made up Language, I should have mentioned that.

You do bring up some good points, and the idea of having the POV character describing them speaks as opposed to writing the words themselves. Actually I really like that idea. As for the inconsequential question there is a scene where two characters speak this language in a conversation that has very little barring on the actualy story except tha it reveals that a third character can speak the language as well which leads to even more questions...Err Yeah. Does that make sense?

Thank you very much for your sage advice.

 

[Boneman]

I'm going to follow this thread, Robin, as I'm doing the same thing. And I've settled on the pov thing that the Judge talks of. It's important for me to get over the fact that it's a foreign language, but within a 'Native Scene' then they just speak English. I've tried to make their language more archaic, use older idioms to fix the language as being different in the reader's eyes. But there comes a time when the pov character is going to be listening (incomprehensibly) to the native tongues, and generally I've found a sentence or two is enough, then I switch to 'He listened as they spoke amongst themselves' kind of thing.

I did write a scene where the English speaking pov was translating simultaneously in his head, and I thought it worked quite well (as the writer). Then, when I looked at it about 5 weeks later it was quite distracting (as a reader). So I found that just one line of translation was enough, then the reader understood what was going on. (I think: haven't run this scene past my writer's group yet, it's in book 2 and I'm still editing book 1)

But I'm in awe that you've made up your own language, and can see that you'd want to use it - I certainly would, if I had that level of intelligence. I think the only thing you can do is write it, and see how it works. Show it to others (closest family first, then distant family, then close friends, then acquaintances, then people you stop on the street and finally, on here...), or you could cut out the middlemen, and come straight to us.

So I guess I'm saying it could add tremendously if you have 2 characters speaking amongst themselves in their native tongue, as long as we don't have to work too hard to understand it, that's the important thing.

My problem will compound itself in book 2 when I have three different races, so I'm hoping you're going to get lots of replies that will help me as well!!

Boneman

ps: if you're going out, could you stop by Tim Horton's and get me a Large French Vanilla? Or get him to open in England. I understand they're saying there's a problem with so much msg in it, but it tastes soooo good.

 

[The Judge]

there is a scene where two characters speak this language in a conversation that has very little barring on the actualy story except tha it reveals that a third character can speak the language as well which leads to even more questions...Err Yeah. Does that make sense?

Yes, I think that scene could work, as there would be a point to it, though much would depend on how soon the third person reveals his/her knowledge and, again, whose POV are you in. But never forget your readers and what you want them to understand from the scene. For instance, if A and B are openly mocking C in their own language, and he responds in kind, then it might be good to show that in English so we can see what is being said.** If C's knowledge of it is an important plot point, but it isn't revealed for some time, again I personally would have A and B talking in English, so that when C later does something based on that conversation -- and which he couldn't have learned anywhere else -- I have given a clue to alert readers as to the fact he is hiding his knowledge.

** not directly relevant to your question but I was reminded of a line of dialogue from The Planet of the Apes. The female ape has spoken English, and one of the humans asks the scientists if the male can also speak, to which Cornelius says something like 'That depends on whether she lets me.' That shows he (a) understands the language, (b) can interpret a question asked of someone else and respond to it and (c) understands and can use humour.

Boneman, not directly relevant to you either, but I recall a TV film about WWII set in Portugal (I think). The German officer/attache or whatever was meant to be bilingual, but when he was talking to non-German speakers, the actor gave him a slightly American accent and he used American words, as if the officer had learned the language through watching films; when he was speaking to fellow Germans, he spoke 'pure' English. Not sure how that's going to help you, though!

 

[Toby Frost]

In turn I'm reminded of a pilot in the old war film Where Eagles Dare, who's pretending to be German in order to help some Commandos land on an enemy airstrip. "Just coming in to the Jerry airfield, chaps!" he tells his passengers. Turning to the radio, he then shouts "Attention Cherman control towah! Ve haf engine trubbel!" Clearly foreign languages were easier back then.

Back on topic, I think I'm with the Judge here. There's no point in making things harder for the reader than they need be. Whether or not you use the imaginary language in this scene may well depend on whose point of view it's coming from. So, from Jim's point of view:

Jim heard the two guards chatting in Elvish. "Don't worry about that fool," one remarked. "He can barely speak his own language, let alone ours."
"Actually, I find Elvish rather clumsy," Jim observed, smiling at their surprise.

Or something like that. The thing really is to keep it easily readable. Unfortunately, as with all background work, you may have to leave bits out if they're burdening the story. I hate cutting my research out!

 

[Primitius]

I'm also currently thinking about language and have gone a long way towards finishing my own fictional one with the invaluable help of Holly Lisles Create a language clinic (if anyones interested in creating a fully working language but isn't too hot on linguistics, pick it up!). I have decided it's going to be used very rarely.
The main reasons I will be incorporating my language into the writing will be to- describe words that don't actually exist in English, have cool other-worldly place and people names that actually have a pattern instead of being random, as mentioned above; when in the POV of someone who doesn't speak the language it could be very interesting to hear people buzzing away in a foreign tongue (within strict limits obviously), and finally, because i'm a massive world-building geek who loves fleshing out languages and cultures just for the fun of it.
Above all I just want the world to be really detailed to make it seem like a fully real place. I plan to make my world-building and writing in this fictional world my lifes work, so I feel I should be as thorough as humanly possible.

 

[Boneman]

by Primitius
I plan to make my world-building and writing in this fictional world my lifes work, so I feel I should be as thorough as humanly possible

Hmm, only 'humanly' possible? I do hope it doesn't take all of your life to finish it.

But I like Toby Two's idea: the two chatted in Elvish... 'since ma babee lef' me.... I fahnd a noo place to dwell....'

 

[Robin Goodfellow]

I'm going to follow this thread, Robin, as I'm doing the same thing. And I've settled on the pov thing that the Judge talks of. It's important for me to get over the fact that it's a foreign language, but within a 'Native Scene' then they just speak English. I've tried to make their language more archaic, use older idioms to fix the language as being different in the reader's eyes. But there comes a time when the pov character is going to be listening (incomprehensibly) to the native tongues, and generally I've found a sentence or two is enough, then I switch to 'He listened as they spoke amongst themselves' kind of thing.

Yeah, this is the type of thing I was thinking of. I think it works better, except maybe if an odd word or phrase is left untranslated by the speaker if they don't know the english word.

I did write a scene where the English speaking pov was translating simultaneously in his head, and I thought it worked quite well (as the writer). Then, when I looked at it about 5 weeks later it was quite distracting (as a reader). So I found that just one line of translation was enough, then the reader understood what was going on. (I think: haven't run this scene past my writer's group yet, it's in book 2 and I'm still editing book 1)

I had the bright idea of writing it in the language, then immediately translate it into english. It didn't work. I was annoying myself when I tried to read it xD

But I'm in awe that you've made up your own language, and can see that you'd want to use it - I certainly would, if I had that level of intelligence. I think the only thing you can do is write it, and see how it works. Show it to others (closest family first, then distant family, then close friends, then acquaintances, then people you stop on the street and finally, on here...), or you could cut out the middlemen, and come straight to us.

It wasn't that hard. It uses a vastly different system of grammar then english which makes it much easier to conjugate, and ask questions. I made it in such a way it'd be able to be written with as few words as possible.

I still plan to use the song I wrote for it though...

So I guess I'm saying it could add tremendously if you have 2 characters speaking amongst themselves in their native tongue, as long as we don't have to work too hard to understand it, that's the important thing.

You would have to work hard to figure out what they're saying. it translates poorly into english, lol. Luckily only two main characters speak it.

My problem will compound itself in book 2 when I have three different races, so I'm hoping you're going to get lots of replies that will help me as well!!

That could be funny as they try to speak to each other.

Yes, I think that scene could work, as there would be a point to it, though much would depend on how soon the third person reveals his/her knowledge and, again, whose POV are you in. But never forget your readers and what you want them to understand from the scene. For instance, if A and B are openly mocking C in their own language, and he responds in kind, then it might be good to show that in English so we can see what is being said.** If C's knowledge of it is an important plot point, but it isn't revealed for some time, again I personally would have A and B talking in English, so that when C later does something based on that conversation -- and which he couldn't have learned anywhere else -- I have given a clue to alert readers as to the fact he is hiding his knowledge.

The POV is actually of a fourth character (Character D). The Point is that Character A and Character B are speaking to each other about character D, which is why they're speaking the language. Then Character C comments on what they were saying. The Reason this scene is important is that the language is that of a Tribal Mountain clan (The Mujadi) who are by nature suspcious of anyone outside their borders, and rarely leave the mountains. The Last person to leave the mountains was nearly twenty years ago, and since no one else would know the language he would be the only person who could have taught character D how to speak the langauge. However Character D has already made the claim he learned it in a town called Russorcia, but he also made the claim he first came to Russorcia five years ago. *Deep Breath* The Point is that it foreshadows him being a compulsive liar, and his eventual betrayal.

Bascially Character C ends up being an insane compulsive liar, and the person who pushes the plot along. I feel it would be rude to ass pull his evilness so I foreshadow it with this, and a few other throw away lines.

Above all I just want the world to be really detailed to make it seem like a fully real place. I plan to make my world-building and writing in this fictional world my lifes work, so I feel I should be as thorough as humanly possible.

As Humanly possible O-o. I'm not going that far, I'm just going for "Kind of believable"


Note: my Computer has been having spaz attacks so if there are any typos or grammar mistakes in this post I apologize, but I don't have the patience to fix the :<

 

[Primitius]

Heres my new problem - how does one create a society in which the gap between rich and poor is not very big, and everyone is reasonably content? Basically how do I create a reasonably realistic societal model along these lines without referring to the 6 basic types of civilization we all know and love (or hate),and without coming across as a lovey-duvy utopia?

I have some factors that make this more feasible -
A dominant religion which preaches great equality and compassion (essentially based on core buddhist ideals), a living god who protects and serves his people, and most importantly, a strict social structure which doesn't allow for over-population or over-colonisation, and has a social stratum where status is completely reflective of ones intellectual abilities, and likewise the advancement of the culture is viewed in terms of knowledge and not expansion.

Conflicts do exist inside this society, but occur in much different ways to any society we have ever known - for example the most common conflicts arise between the religious institution and families, concerning conflicting ideas of how their children should be raised and taught.

Does this sound like a feasible idea? Any thoughts on what i've just discussed would be very welcome.

 

[The Judge]

Well, you've obviously done a lot of research into real life society models, and you have thought hard about the problems that can exist, so I think the time has come to stop worrying and start writing!

When it comes down to it, you are not creating a workable society, you are creating fiction. As long as everything hangs together, so there are no glaring issues, and provided you write well, most people will suspend disbelief. The most carefully thought out societal plan won't avail you if the characters are cardboard and the plot corny. So concentrate on telling a good story with engaging characters and let the setting worry about itself for a while - you can always make tweaks about societal matters in the second (third, fourth...) drafts.

Good luck with it.

 

[Primitius]

Well, you've obviously done a lot of research into real life society models, and you have thought hard about the problems that can exist, so I think the time has come to stop worrying and start writing!

When it comes down to it, you are not creating a workable society, you are creating fiction. As long as everything hangs together, so there are no glaring issues, and provided you write well, most people will suspend disbelief. The most carefully thought out societal plan won't avail you if the characters are cardboard and the plot corny. So concentrate on telling a good story with engaging characters and let the setting worry about itself for a while - you can always make tweaks about societal matters in the second (third, fourth...) drafts.

Good luck with it.

thanks for the words of encouragement

 

[Toby Frost]

I'm assuming that this is set in a pre-gunpowder fantasy world. I think this is all quite feasible. As The Judge points out, this isn't an essay but a story seen through different points of view, and hence you don't need to reveal everything, just to dodge any glaring errors.

Firstly, what would make people happy? A pre-gunpowder world may not have the resources and infrastructure to divide or transport goods to make everyone comparatively well-off, so they may well judge happiness in other ways. It sounds as if they are not terribly downtrodden - oddly enough tyranny makes people unhappy - and they do not worry terribly about money. Do they worry about social status? It could go either way: people will argue over tiny nuances. A strict social structure may result in "loss of face" issues, though, which can get nasty.

I suspect the ruling king won't be too seperate from his people and will place a lot of importance on their happiness. I believe Bhutan has laws forcing its rulers to consider the happiness of the citizens when they make laws. They may not obey them, but the concept may be worth researching. Bhutan is also poor and, IIRC, bans certain things if they are likely to lower the standard of living, including advertising billboards.

Most (ie virtually all) ancient societies were horribly unequal, partly out of necessity. Religions tended to justify this ("The rich man in his castle, the poor man at his gate" as the Victorian hymn goes). Perhaps your nation's religion glorifies peasants and requires the upper classes to honour them, on pain of damnation. Perhaps tilling the land makes the peasants either really or spiritually magical (earth god?).

There probably should be a sense that every citizen is a potential soldier, or at least of no army-caste or special group of exalted warriors, who would soon oppress their subjects (or at least bleed them). The US Minuitemen, or British Roundheads or Home Guard could be worth looking at here as well as Agincourt-era bowmen, Venetian militia and the like. Such an army could fight very fiercely.

There's lots to consider, but it sounds like you've approached this with an open mind. Might I reccomend The Dispossessed, by Ursula LeGuin? It includes a planet run by Anarchists, which is very different to ours and hence runs along unusual lines. But also, as The Judge says, start writing it!

 

[Peter Graham]

Ultimately, social inequality comes down to ownership and control of resources, which in a medieval setting means ownership of land.

If you have a theocracy which (unusually) is not every bit as corrupt as secular authority (perhaps because the living God actually exists and is on hand to smite those men of the cloth who embrace material culture, dip their hands into the collection plate and furtle the eunuchs), you could arguably have system in which all land is held by the church as Trustees for the Almighty.

In accordance with the prevailing religious code, the Archbishop issues a decree capping land rent and capping the amount of acreage any one man can hold. Tax is also capped and can be paid in kind - including by way of service in the army or by the provison of artisan services to the Church. You could then have a rather exciting situation in which the military is a coalition of foaming zealots and indentured farm-boys who sign on by the season and cities are all built round major religious structures, which glitter in awe-inspiring beauty thanks to the efforts of the indentured masons.

Regards,

Peter

 

[MeriPie]

Hi, a few random questions... I think they're more fantasy than anything else but hard to say.

I'm writing a modern fantasy type thing, slotting my fantastical bits into the world we're in now. Quite a large part of it hinges on a religious cult, but I desperately want to avoid Dan Brownism. When I bashed out the first draft of the opening scene, I had them wearing robes because I couldn't think what else they'd wear, and my wonderfully critical friend screamed in Dan Brown panic, so I've turned them into businessmen who pop in straight from work in their suits, which I like more. However, I've currently based them in Vatican City, because they're meant to sort of pre-date the Catholic Church. As far as I know, seeing as I literally can't stomach Dan Brown's writing long enough to read his books, my plot is absolutely nothing to do with his, but I don't want people reading the phrase Vatican City and thinking, 'Oh here we go, Dan Brown'. So essentially, I was wondering if you lovely, clever people had any thoughts on this? Should I leave it in Vatican City? Should I find a less stereotyped religious site of importance? Should I make up my own (based on some research, obviously)?

I've read a few posts earlier on in this thread about languages. My main character (I'm writing in first person) has what I originally planned to call the gift of Tongues, but on doing a bit of research it seems like Tongues isn't exactly what most people tend to think it is. What I was after is closer to xenoglossia, but I can't really imagine a character referring to a skill he barely understands himself with such a scientific name. I've been referring to it without really using a name so far, and I was wondering if people think that's okay, and makes sense, or if I should make up a name, or bend the definition of an existing one to what I want?

Sorry to be super-specific with my questions!