3 heads of a dragon and heirs...?

K@li

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first, hi people, i'm new, been lurking and reading last few days, some great theories here, wow! (and sorry bout my english, mostly read and seldom speak or write, so... )

well, just one thing that came to my mind few minutes ago and can't remember if anyone mentioned it before.... it's totally crazy since it's a kind of a sequence to a theory that is still to be proved correct,and we'll probably have to wait for the series to end to see if it was any good, but...

if i remember well, danny is barren,right? (if not, so sorry, me stupid :D )
well, just thought, if she won the crown, with jon snow and the third one, whoever that might happen to be, if that third one is a male, who is going to give birth to their heir? it would be a shame that they conquer all, rule till their deaths and then someone not a targ inherits all or a war all over again...
 
Is Danny really barren, or was the Magi lying?

Is there another female Targ out there?

or a Male one to father a heir on another female?
 
Wlecome to the boards K@li. I'm sure this has been dealt with somewhere but right now I am too lazy to go looking for it, so count yourself lucky that your hazing has been fairly docile so far. ;)

Mirri Maz Lur was lying IMO.
 
Question is though........

I think most of us believe (very, very general statement) that Jon will end up as one of the three heads, and that he is half Targ.

If Dany is fertile, would GRRM's publisher, considering how popular the series has become, allow (probably not the right word, because for GRRM I'm pretty sure at this point the pen is mightier than the publishing house) for them to have an incestous, and royal child, that would, in theory be one of virtue?

Obviously we've had the childs Lannister, but they were scorned by readers, due to the personaliy of Joff, and Cersei.

Would he actually write a child born of incest as the rightfull ruler?
 
Would he actually write a child born of incest as the rightfull ruler?

But Dany is a result of incest, and everyone is rooting for her to take the throne back. The Targaryens are built upon it. I don't think there'd be an issue. I certainly don't think Martin would shy away from writing that, if it were in his plans.
 
Agreed!
I think his story is just as it is - a story. I don't think he is out there to write a parody on life or to uphold his views on how the world should work (like Nothern Lights sort of is) I think he very much created a world - created characters and then let them loose. If it fits the story I think he will follow the character path and not hte readers.
 
Rhaegar was born from incest as well as the DragonKnight and the Young Dragon and they are glorified. I do not see a problem with Dany taking the Throne.
 
Welcome Kali. Of course this has been discussed, but I'm always up for this discussion... mayhaps I'll learn or re-learn something of importance.

There have been a couple threads like this, but The Dragon Has Three Heads is by far the most popular and thorough.

I'm not sending you off there to post... I just wanted you to know where else to look for other possible ideas...

Now on to your post...

Yes, Jon seems the most popular and most logical choice to join Daenerys as a head of the dragon. And if Dany is incapable of bearing a child, then the third head should be a female who can bear Jon's child. I don't think that the lords of Westeros would take seriously the idea of an adopted child by Dany.

Who are the likely candidates?

Sansa. She has red hair... Jon likes red hair. She's the daughter of Eddard Stark. She's making the switch from pawn to player in the great game. She's the eldest child of Edmure's sisters... if Ed dies without issue, then either his uncle, nephew, or niece would inherit Riverrun. Also as cousin to Robert, Sansa figures into the Arryn line of succession as well. So Sansa actually figures into the lines of succession to three of the six great houses. One obstacle is that Eddard was one (if not the primary) of the supporters of Robert Baratheon in his overthrow of Dany's father.

Margaery. She's already been married to three kings. Why not a fourth? Renly thought she looks like Lyanna... Lyanna is thought to be Jon's mother... so why not completing the circle by Jon marrying his mother's doppleganger? House Tyrell can field the largest number of knights in the Seven Kingdoms, so Dany must reckon with them.

Arianne. She was secretly betrothed to Viserys for at least a decade... so why not just marry her off to Viserys' sister? It seems that Arianne is no stranger to menage a trois'. The Martells have been staunch supporters ever since their incorporation into the Targaryen kingdom.

Arya. Another Stark daughter. She's geographically closer to Dany than any of the other candidates. She and Jon have a great affinity towards each other... in fact, when Jon thinks of Ygritte, he often compares her to Arya. Eddard told her that she looks like Lyanna... another possibility to bring Jon together with his mother's doppleganger.

Jeyne Stark, nee Westerling. She may be carrying Robb's heir... if so, then she's got a strong claim to Winterfell.

Asha. The Ironborn will remain a pestilence upon Westeros until a strong ruler can defeat them at sea... this most likely means a united Westeros will be first needed to even attempt to deal with the Greyjoys. Marriage might be the key to re-incorporating the Iron Islands back into Targaryen hegemony... that's how the Targs finally pacified Dorne. A problem with a Dany, Jon, Asha triumvirate is that none of them are Andals nor hold to the Faith of the Seven.

Val. How numerous are the Wildlings? I don't know, but she could represent the largest incoporation of people's into Targaryen rule since Aegon I won on the Field of Fire. Again, I don't know that the Andals would stand for this. Princess is a title not lightly ignored.

Myrcella. She's a longshot for sure. House Lannister probably will be exterminated for Dany to rule comfortably... especially the males. But Dany has a soft spot for the defenseless... and Tyrion (who we assume is going to join Dany soon) loves her too. She gives Dany her connection to the Andals she needs.

There are thousands and thousands of noble born ladies and girls to choose from in Westeros, but these are the players from the major houses and power bases.

I must also say that I'm not sold on Jon being a head of the Dragon. I think there are other unrevealed Targaryen bastards out there still... and Tyrion is my favorite candidate. The idea of Tyraen Targaryen has not received much support, but I like it. Even crazier is Jaeme Targaryen... hey it explains his penchant for incest.

Nor am I sold that Dany is barren. Mirri lied to her about a number of things. If this is the case, then a number of men from the leading houses become eligible to be heads also...

Loras. He'd need to be forgiven for serving Joffrey and Tommen, but hey Robert forgave Jaime and Barristan.

Quentyn. He's already on his way to woo Dany.

Victarion. Ditto.

Trystayne Martell.

Harrold Hardyng. His tenuous connections to a title and land, plus his name, seem reminiscent of Harald Hardrada... of English and Norse history.

Bran. He is the real heir to Winterfell. He seems destined to fly. Tyrion told him that on horseback that he'd be as tall as anyone... well, how about on dragonback? His inability to father children would never complicate the line of succession.

Theon. I don't know that he'll even retain any sanity by the end of ADWD.
 
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I'd put a strike through Sansa and Arya, at least as possible consorts for Jon. Jon would never agree to incest, and I doubt Sansa or Arya would be that thrilled either. And Val can go as well - as you say, she is no princess, and besides the Wildlings follow no man. A union with her brings no one to the table.
 
Regarding Sansa and Arya. If R+L=J, then they are not Jon's sisters... so incest does not come into play. And if R+L=J, then incest does not matter... politically speaking. Cul, I think you need to reread Jon's chapters after he meets Ygritte. Pay attention to his feelings for Ygritte... how the lonliness comes and goes... and how Jon compares Ygritte to Arya.

Wildlings can say all they want to about being Free Folk and rather dying than bend the knee... We've seen Osha's decision on this matter... Even Ygritte quickly surrendered rather than die. I think the Wildlings are largely a group of blowhards. Without the Horn of Winter they will be faced with an even worse decision, either bend the knee or become undead. To paraphrase Henry III of Navarre... "Life is worth a septon." If it were put to the Wildlings that they could survive the Others and even gain prestige in KL, they might go for it. The problem is that Mance seems to be the only real visionary and strategist among the lot. Without his leadership, they'll never have political clout at Court.
 
This is all assuming Dany will come to the throne. An assumption that I am ready to make as well, however, this is GRRM we are talking about and he has a way with characters.

Dany has strenght and wisdom beyond her years. She also has some decent advisers with her at the end of ASOS as well as others on their way to her (Tyrion & Quentyn). She also has others who likely have leached onto her in their own quest for power or revenge or both. The stage is set for Dany coming to the throne with a weak king in Tommen, the Lannisters is disarray, the Tyrells possibly having motives to help put her there and Westeros starving with winter coming. We may see Dany on the throne only to see her killed shortly thereafter. We may also see her killed with the throne within her grasp.

GRRM said we will have a "bittersweet ending". Dany's death would certainly be bitter to those of us who are cheering her on but another Targ, especially a *******, coming to the throne would certainly be the sweet part. I always said that the tone GRRM has set in this series with regards to bastards could only mean that a ******* will one day come to the throne and rule the kingdom justly. Jon is that *******.
 
First of all, the most disturbing thing in this thread is TK's avatar... I feel both frightened and excited at the same time.

This is all assuming Dany will come to the throne. An assumption that I am ready to make as well, however, this is GRRM we are talking about and he has a way with characters.
Well, this thread is about the Three Heads of the Dragon. We could discuss other options... we've done that in other threads, i.e. Who will rule in Westeros at the end of ASOIAF?

One comment regarding Jon and incest. If R+L=J, then Jon would not have any siblings. He'd have cousin Sansa, cousin Arya, and Aunt Dany.

The only way for Jon to have a sibling is if R+L=J+1. If Jon had a secretly hidden twin out there I'd be shocked. But it may also give the twist to the term Ice and Fire. Jon is most likely Ice.... a hidden twin raised in Dorne or overseas by Ashara Dayne could be Fire. Of course we assume the Dany is Fire, but if two of the Heads of the Dragon are Ice and Fire, then what will the third Head be?

A twin is stupid I know... I was just thinking out loud.
 
First of all, the most disturbing thing in this thread is TK's avatar... I feel both frightened and excited at the same time.

A twin is stupid I know... I was just thinking out loud.

Well, the avatar quite sexy, eh! I have a few others up my sleeve but rather like this one. Makes me want to go to the beach.

Thank you Boaz for giving me a dose of my own medicine and pointing me in the direction of previous discussions on whether Dany will ever come to throne. I hope you would agree, however that this has a major basis as to why people are coming up with options as to whom will bear an heir and is part general thrust of this thread. (I like that word, thrust. Makes me want to go to the beach!).

And, your idea about a twin. Well, Forrest Gump said it best with his famous quote: "Stupid is as stupid does."

Dany will have no heir but Jon will.
 
To me, bittersweet would be the Starks returned to their former glory with Jon legitimized and Lord of Winterfell but with the Lannisters in control of King's Landing and Dany, uh, killed during the fight with the Others. Not that I think any of this will happen but I do strongly believe that the "bittersweet" part is going to include the Lannisters remaining in some position of power. Maybe Cersei goes down but the House as a whole will remain as prestigious and powerful as always.

Boaz, while Jon with Arya and Sansa is not technically incest, do you think Jon is going to see it that way? Those are his sisters in his eyes. There's no way he's going to sleep with them whether its accepted politically or not. It's not in his character.
 
Boaz, while Jon with Arya and Sansa is not technically incest, do you think Jon is going to see it that way? Those are his sisters in his eyes. There's no way he's going to sleep with them whether its accepted politically or not. It's not in his character.

Precisely what I was going to say. And arguing that because Ygritte (shudder) reminds him of Arya does not necessarily mean he has indecent feelings for his sister - merely that the Wildling shares the character traits he admires in Arya.
 
i really don't think that jon would marry sansa or arya... but who knows :D
well,bittersweet ending, to me that sounds like some of the good guys shall win the throne but probably some characters we grew to love will die (hm, somehow i can see tyrion dying, though i really really like him - can't see him as the third head of the dragon, maybe some counsellor or something)... now, even to start guessing at who might die and who might win some nice position, it's a bit 2much - i'm at work now :D
but, since i titled this thread the way i did (not so sure why, since it wasn't my intention to stick just to this theory but nevermind now)
well, don't have time to search all previous threads, is there something with guesses who dies at the end and who survives? it would be interesting to make some bets,too :p and are there some other theories, some kind of "let's make some totally unexpected scenario".....

edit: ops, just started to read who will rule in westeros at the end... wow
 
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Maybe Cersei goes down but the House as a whole will remain as prestigious and powerful as always.

You'll have to ask Jaime about the former. As for the latter, the safest route for the Targaryens would be to eradicate the Lannisters. The Reynes and Tarbecks would like that. In the War of the Roses, there were always minor family members and minor branches of great houses that survived purges and changes of the throne. The nobility of England was interrelated so there was often forgiveness to be found... Back to Westeros, there was a conversation regarding Vargo Hoat (I don't recall the speakers) and the Mummers not fighting at the Blackwater, yet dying there all the same... the conversation said there was always forgiveness for nobles, but not for mercenaries. Then again Cersei told Eddard something like, "When you play the Game of Thrones, you either win or die." There is no middle ground for the claimants... Tommen, Dany, Margaery... they'll either win or die.

There's no way he's going to sleep with them whether its accepted politically or not. It's not in his character.

Jon has matured and changed a lot in the story to date. Jon the boy might not have slept with a wildling, but Jon the black brother did so under orders. Jon the boy would not seperate Craster from his son, yet Jon the commander seperated Gilly from her babe. Jon the boy tried to ride off to join Robb, yet Jon the lord refused Stannis' offers. In my opinion, what Jon will or will not do for political and strategic reasons remains to be seen.

It's about time for me to add the caveat that these are only my own thoughts... and I've been wrong before.
 
I think alot of people wrongly assume that just because u are a "head of a dragon" means u must be sexually linked. It might just mean there are 2 others out there that Dany can trust as she herself thinks in her own words. I also do not think that it automatically means that those other two will be entitled to rule also. IMO just means they will be the ones to count on, to help her, to be close to her in the trying times ahead (the war against the Others).

There also might not be a Targ after Dany who can claim the Throne when she dies. The bittersweet ending might jst be that, her getting the Throne but knowing that she is the last of her line.
 

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