Fate of the Wall

[Charming Serpent]

Not going to go for a long intro into this, but I was just reading the Jon sample chapter again and an idea popped into my head; Perhaps the Wall will not be "broken" by the Horn, but melted?? Perhaps Mels' "Stone Dragon" (Though I believe the Stone Dragon is only Melisandre's misintrepretation of Dany's stone eggs that dragons came from)will be its fall?? Perhaps Danys own Dragons will scorch it in a potential battle at the Wall itself?? Maybe Melisandre and her spells??

Excerpt from Jon and Melisandre:
"It is always cold on the Wall."
"You think so?"
"I know so, my lady."
"Then you know nothing, Jon Snow," she whispered

Also, I remember Maester Aemon saying something to Sam on the ship heading to Oldtown muttering about Dragons and prophecies, eggs, Stone Dragons and Melisandre. About how the Wall preserves and Jon must be told.

Something is in the Wall in my opinion. Eggs, Dragons ..... something.

 

[Ursa major]

I thought - and the more enlightened around here will tell me if I'm wrong - that the Wall is there to protect what is now the Seven Kingdoms from whatever lies to the North.

I had also come to understand that Melisandre, for all her other faults, was on the side of Fire rather than that of Ice. So why would she help destroy the Wall? (And why, for that matter, would someone from the south - they built it, after all - hide something in it that would require damage to the Wall to free it?


Just my 2c.

 

[Charming Serpent]

Melisandre will not purposely destroy it, but i believe she could accidentally help in its fall. She put an empty glamour on Stannis's sword to make it look like Lightbringer and she has misread or misintrepreted the prophecies to try and make it what she thinks it must be. And I believe she would destroy the Wall in a heartbeat if she though she make wake a dragon from it.

As to something being in it; Aemaon said the wall preserves so I am assuming something is in it, but the lore or the know why has been lost.

 

[The Imp]

"It is always cold on the Wall."
"You think so?"
"I know so, my lady."
"Then you know nothing, Jon Snow," she whispered

I had read the sample chapter a while back but missied this. How interesting that she, a person with red hair, would use the one phrase that we would associate with Ygritte, Not sure what to make of it. Coincidence, maybe.

 

[Bazza]

I believe Melisandre has revealed earlier in the books (I forget where) that she can talk to the dead. She states previously in the sample chapter that she has seen Jon in her fires. She probably did a background check in dead person city and consulted Ygritte about Jon to see what kind of person he was. That's how I see it.

 

[Charming Serpent]

Something along those lines. i agree .

 

[Boaz]

CS, very interesting thoughts. I've not seen anything this original in quite a while. Hmmmmm.....

Possible clues for an egg hidden in the Wall.

Melisandre tells Jon the Wall is not always cold.

Aemon tells Jon that the cold of the Wall preserves.

Aemon tells Jon of dragon eggs.

Queen Alysanne once visited the Wall. She convinced her husband, Jaehaerys I, to double the size of the lands belonging to the Night's Watch, i.e. the New Gift. Jaehaerys also built the King's Road.

In, and of, themselves, these are not great clues. Not nearly as many or as persuasive as R+L=J.

But could Alysanne have put a dragon egg in the Wall? Could she have been so impressed with the NW, that she gave them this precious gift?

If Jon were to find this egg, could he train it and himself to resist Dany... a return to the Dance of the Dragons (a famous Targaryen sibling rivalry for the Iron Throne)? Yet it seems that time is running out on ASOIAF. Dany's dragons will not be fully mature by the end of the story, not to mention Jon's...

So why did Jaehaerys build the Kingsroad? Why did he give the New Gift? If the NW is out of vogue after the Targaryen's fall (more than eight thousand years after the last war with the Others) why wasn't it out of vogue two hundred years previously during Jaehaerys' reign?

Mayhaps Alysanne was not as much impressed with the strength of the NW as impressed by their need of assistance. Mayhaps she knew of the prophecies concerning ice and fire and The Prince That Was Promised. Mayhaps she interpreted this as a Targaryen assuming lordship of the Wall... one who could battle the Other... one who would need a dragon for no Targaryen king would actually allow a family member to leave the family with a fully grown dragon in tow.

Mayhaps she left an egg in the Wall.

Why did Jaehaerys feel the need to build the Kingsroad all the way from KL to Castle Black?

Here's a thought. Mayhaps he built the road because his wife told him what a long awful journey it was without a dragon. Mayhaps she returned from the Wall on horseback or by carriage. But why would she do this when she had actually flown to the Wall on her dragon, Silverwing? Mayhaps she left Silverwing at the Wall. Mayhaps there are not dragon eggs in the wall... Mayhaps there is actually a fully matured dragon already in the Wall waiting for a Targaryen descendent, a mixture of ice and fire, and TPTWP to awaken/release it.

Of course this is pure conjecture from CS' op. If you can think of any other evidence, supportive or contrary, please post it.

 

[The Imp]

I'm an old conspiracy theorist at heart. It just seems really odd to me that GRRM would use that particular line (you know nothing, Jon Snow) when he hcould have conveyed the same meaning using any number of other phrases.

 

[Charming Serpent]

I think Mel's words were carefuuly chosen, but I think they were chosen for head games with him and to let him know how smart/powerful she is. Most likely used her powers or flames to grab those words from his head or perhaps from the past in her flames. She did state that she saw Jon in her fires.

I still think something is in that Wall though. Reread the FFC chapter where Aemon is dying on the ship and rambling to Sam. Might be two chapters now that I am thinking.

P.S

Oh, just remembered that Sam or another character specifically thinks "Could Silverwing have left and egg behind at the Wall."

 

[Ursa major]

It would still be daft if one had to destroy a section of the Wall to get at the egg (given that dragons are not immortal and it would take a great deal of effort to repair a section of such a huge structure), even if there is one. (And "behind at the Wall" could mean anywhere near the Wall, although presumably on its southern side.)

 

[Boaz]

It would still be daft if one had to destroy a section of the Wall to get at the egg

Absolutely. Presumably an egg or Silverwing would be retrievable without destroying the Wall. Mayhaps an egg could be stashed at Queenscrown castle.

Why has Melisandre always urged Stannis to see himself as Azor Ahai and not Aegon the Conqeror? To be Aegon, Stannis needs to rule from KL. To be Azor Ahai, Stannis needs to fight the Other... and the most logical place to await the Other is the Wall. Mayhaps Melisandre knew about this dragon or dragon egg supposedly at the Wall... We know she is either totally deluded that Stannis with his pretty sword is AA reborn or she's adeptly manipulating him into thinking this. If she knows he's not AA, then what is in it for her to lead Stannis to the slaughter? A dragon might be the answer.

CS, can you provide the passage where Sam wonders about Silverwing leaving an egg? That's highly intriguing.

 

[Charming Serpent]

Here are a few of the passages between Aemon and Sam in FFC

"Why would the Gods take my eyes and my strength, yet condemn me to linger on so long, frozen and forgotten? What use could they have for an old man done man like me? Because I remember, Sam. I still remember."

"Lord Snow could not have known, but I should have seen it. Fire consumes, but cold preserves. The Wall ... but it is too late to go running back now."


Here is the brief Silverwing entry:

~There were dragons here two hundred years ago, Sam found himself thinking, as he watched the cage making a slow descent. They would have just flown to the top of the Wall. Queen Alysanne had visited Castle Black on her dragon, and Jaehaerys, her king, had come after her on his own. Could Silverwing have left an egg behind? Or had Stannis found one on Dragonstone? Even if he has an egg, how can he hope to quicken it?~

Lets not forget that Jaehaerys did not intend to come to the Wall. He was in Winterfell discussing things with the Warden of the North when Alysanne flew to the Wall by herself. What happened at the Wall and the reasons why are up for conjecture.

We do know that Alysanne was "deeply moved" by the NW and built them a new castle with her own jewels. Maybe she gave them more? Maybe without them even knowing?

And now I will hand the baton off to Boaz ...

 

[Charming Serpent]

Just remembered something:

One of the characters is shown a vision or has a dream about " A great winged Stone Dragon rising and breathing flames of Shadow"

Maybe Mel corrupts a dragon egg? Or gets her wish and uses kings blood to perhaps animate a lifeless Stone Dragon like those that decorate DragonStone??

 

[Rider]

Some parts of the wall were stone, you can't melt that.

 

[Charming Serpent]

Tell that to Harren and his sons.

 

[Eulalia]

Silverwing seems a fitting dragon name, colour theme-wise for Jon, or even Dany, if she didn't already have three.

That would be intriguing if there were dragons or dragon eggs in the wall. Given Melisandre's birth giving proclivities I could see her hatching an egg or turning into mother dragon as a dark version of Dany. I wouldn't put much past her--drinking the blood of a king's son or who knows.

There might be lots of obsidian in the wall. Westeros may suddenly need a stash of it. Also, I wonder if dragon breath could melt the wall, or create obsidian out of rock. Just saying.

 

[Parabola]

Hi, another lurker reporting for duty! Hopefully I won't stab myself in the foot in the practice yard!

Just a few thoughts, they might be a bit off the wall (no pun intended) but here goes...

If there is an egg/dragon at the Wall, I think Mel knows, and that's precisely why she's there. As well as Aemon's comments and Sam's thoughts, I think Mel being at the Wall is a good indication itself that there's something there. Let's compare circumstances around the "awakening" (if a may call it that) of Dany's eggs to Mel's abilities we've seen thus far...

When Mirri Mazz Dur was trying to heal Drogo, she had "shadows" dancing in the tent when Dany entered; much like the one Davos witnessed Mel birth perhaps?

Dany's eggs awoke on a funeral pyre, and we all know Mel's penchant for bonfires

And all this talk of King's blood (iirc), would one call Khal Drogo, leader of the largest Khalasar, a king? Maybe his blood came into contact with the eggs while the were on the pyre, which may have been another component of the awakening. Seems like Mel has plenty of King's blood to use as she pleases.

I can't believe that mel genuinely believes that Stannis is AA reborn, she couldn't be that deluded, she's forcing the prophecies into being for crying out loud! There must be another reason for her being at the Wall, and a dragon would suit, in my opinion. We know she has the powers to recreate the circumstance of the awakening of Dany's petrified eggs, so why not the awakening of a frozen, adult dragon? Maybe not to claim it for herself, but perhaps to proclaim Jon AA reborn. And if R+L=J is true and he is a Targaryen and can control dragons and is the prime candidate to lead the defense against the Other as Lord Commander, why not?

I'm probably completely wrong, i know. But i'm just happy to have overcome my first post (after two, much longer failed attempts at this one)! Hope I've made some worthwhile contribution!

 

[Charming Serpent]

I would concur with u in general with ur info minus one exception:

Lets say that Jon is part Targ, which I think is a high possibility, that does not automatically entail an ability to control Dragons. The Targs just viewed it as their birthright. They were from Valryia where dragons were common and controlled and in Westeros they were the only ones who had them.

Jon might be part Targ by blood, but he is full Stark by nature. I think alot of people are mislead into thinking some grand scheme is going to come about by him. Him becoming King, Lord of Winterfell, AA reborn etc etc .... Most like, he will remain at the wall (if he even lives through this) as its Lord Commander.

But, ur reasoning is generally in-line with my own. Even Aemon said that Mel had to know Stannis wasn't AA because she had "forced" an "empty glamour" upon the sword. It is obviously not Lightbringer. She is trying to smudge the fine print and make Stannis AA Reborn no matter what it takes.

I'll leave again by saying I highly suspect another dragon is coming into play, whether it be from stone and shadow, hiding under Winterfell or re-animated and I think its going to appear at the Wall if not from it.

Oh, welcome to the forum by the way

 

[Ursa major]

Weren't we led to believe** that the person who initiated the plan by which Stannis moved himself up to the Wall was Ser Davos Seaworth (who is hardly a public ally of Melisandre).









** - I feel the sand washing away from benath this post already....

 

[Parabola]

Thanks for the welcome!

Ah yes, sorry I realise that being a Targ doesn't grant the ability to control dragons, don't quite know why I put that in there!

I would have to say though that i don't believe Jon will become King or Lord of Winterfell, but AA is presumably going to be reborn, and presumably already has been given the ridiculous timescale that would be required if he hadn't. And seeing as AA certainly isn't Stannis, it seems only logical that Jon would be the best candidate, and may explain why Mel has taken such an interest. And if he does turn out to be AA reborn, it needn't necessarily mean that he'll leave the Wall or become King, etc, he may die in the struggle or fade into relative obscurity if he is victorious.

And i'd agree, another dragon there more than likely will be. Under Winterfell would seem the next best place, given Bran's POV after Winterfell was destroyed, the fact that Jaehaerys and Alysanne were at Winterfell around the the time something was allegedly left at either location, the hot springs beneath the Keep would seem like a good place to leave a petrified dragon, etc etc...

Bottom line is, we'll have to wait and see anyway! But I think we're on the right track