Fate of the Wall

[Charming Serpent]

Ursa,

Mel knew the Others were gathering and begining their opening moves for the War for the Dawn. She states it more than once, but Stannis is extremely stubborn and has proven very hard to move in ones wanted direction when he has his mind set. His mindset being his rights and the Iron Throne. Well, he learned his lesson. Mel knows much but as Davos has proven she does not know all nor understand all. I don't think she knew how rapidly the Others had been moving nor of the events of the Nights Watch were facing. But this all still has no bearing on whats in the Wall. Her being at the Wall might not be her idea, but now that she is there perhaps she will find something that she has been wanting if not needing.

Besides all of that, this thread is for the theory of something being in that Wall. Aemon and Sams comments are too clear to deny that.

Parabola,

~~~ Spoiler~~~

Dany is AA Reborn. Its almost a known fact to everyone though I could see how u might have missed it. Some parts of the AA and TPTWP prophecies :"Born amidst Salt and Smoke" (Dany was born between the Sea, salt, and next to Dragonmont on Dragonstone, smoke) (Another popular interpretation of that is Dany as AA was "reborn" in the grasslands that are called the Dothraki Sea and in the smoke of the funeral pyre.) "Wake dragons from stone" (Danys eggs were petrified stone) "A Bleeding Star will herald the way" (The comet that appeared when Danys dragons were born that she has been following) And the fact that she had a dream of battling an army made of ice and that it felt as if she was meant to do that.

As to the dragon under Winterfell theory: http://www.sffchronicles.co.uk/forum/43200-curious-question.html

 

[Ursa major]

Ursa,

Mel knew the Others were gathering and begining their opening moves for the War for the Dawn. She states it more than once, but Stannis is extremely stubborn and has proven very hard to move in ones wanted direction when he has his mind set. His mindset being his rights and the Iron Throne. Well, he learned his lesson. Mel knows much but as Davos has proven she does not know all nor understand all. I don't think she knew how rapidly the Others had been moving nor of the events of the Nights Watch were facing. But this all still has no bearing on whats in the Wall. Her being at the Wall might not be her idea, but now that she is there perhaps she will find something that she has been wanting if not needing.

I wouldn't disagree, CharmingS; but sometimes we tend to forget that actions (and the pace by which they are followed through) are not entirely driven by scheming non-POV characters, but sometimes by external events.

Besides all of that, this thread is for the theory of something being in that Wall. Aemon and Sams comments are too clear to deny that.

I, personally, am convinced that there's something there (but see my next comment).

Dany is AA Reborn. Its almost a known fact to everyone though I could see how u might have missed it. Some parts of the AA and TPTWP prophecies :"Born amidst Salt and Smoke" (Dany was born between the Sea, salt, and next to Dragonmont on Dragonstone, smoke) (Another popular interpretation of that is Dany as AA was "reborn" in the grasslands that are called the Dothraki Sea and in the smoke of the funeral pyre.) "Wake dragons from stone" (Danys eggs were petrified stone) "A Bleeding Star will herald the way" (The comet that appeared when Danys dragons were born that she has been following) And the fact that she had a dream of battling an army made of ice and that it felt as if she was meant to do that.

Like that would stop GRRM pulling a fast one. However, in the absence of other evidence, I too have come to believe that Dany is something akin to AA Reborn - but there is always the chance that this is a false, muddled, or poorly understood prophecy and that means that there could be a danger that we see too much through its (distorted) prism. (But isn't the possibility of shifts in our understanding of what's really going on one of the principal joys of this series?)

 

[Parabola]

Ha ha oh dear probably should have brushed up before taking the leap ay? Thank you CS, I have been humbled.

I did grasp that Dany was AA reborn the first time i read the series, and i've just started my first reread in anticipation of aDwD next year, so it's just a case of forgetting and not being completely out of the loop! (hopefully!)

I'm still holdin' out for another dragon though! And that the Wall will remain standing even after the Others have been dealt with! I don't like the idea of wildlings having more freedom to raid the North.......

 

[Boaz]

Hi, another lurker reporting for duty!

Welcome!

First, we are dealing with two main prophecies... of the rebirth of Azor Ahai, champion of the Light, and of the arrival of The Prince That Was Promised. AA is from the religion of R'hllor. TPTWP is from House Targaryen. I'm not yet sold on the idea that they are just two reflections of the same prophecy.

When you guys are mentioning salt and smoke, that's from the TPTWP prophecy not the AA prophecy.

One thing that just came to me regarding Dany as AA (it's probably old news, but it just popped into my head) is that AA tempered his weapon in the life and blood of his beloved. Can we say that Dany birthed her dragons from the life of Drogo? Mayhaps, but Drogo was dead 12-24 hours before the birth of the dragons... yet on the plus side for Dany=AA, she killed Drogo herself. At the time she killed Drogo she had not yet conceived her plan to hatch the dragons. The deaths that were specifically for Drogo's pyre and the birth of the Dragons were that of a horse and Mirri Maz Duur. Mirri told Dany that only death can pay for life. Dany's killing of Drogo and the quick hatching of her dragons does not exactly mirror AA, but it's close enough.

CS said that Jon's nature was that of House Stark, not House Targaryen. This is interesting because <Spoiler Warning> if R+L=J, then Rhaegar fathered Jon for the express purpose of creating TPTWP. Jon may not be AA, but he could still be TPTWP while Dany is AA. It seems to me that (if R+L=J) was born amid Lyanna's tears while the Tower of Joy was under attack... salt and smoke, mayhaps.

Ursa, yes we are led to believe that Davos was the instigator of Stannis' move to the Wall. Mayhaps Melisandre saw this in the flames and allowed Davos to be raised up to Hand.

I don't have the answers, guys. I just like to poke around.

 

[Ursa major]

Thanks for reminding us of the two main prophecies, Boaz. (And you say you don't have all the answers. Yeah, right. )


And you're also right about those flames: it can provide a get out clause for anyone wanting to put forward the idea that Melisandre is more in control than she sometimes seems to be. (Now if we could work out whether what she sees are true prophecies, possible future events or someone or something else pushing yet another agenda.... )

 

[the smiling weirwood]

I don't buy that Jon is TPTWP. Dany has the dragons. It all comes back to the dragons, and for good reason. Jon is a cool guy, and has some sort of warging ability with Ghost, but I don't think he's the subject of either prophecy. His name is Lord Snow. Maybe GRRM is just trying to throw us off here, but so far names and symbols have been very important and all of Jon's point to ice and winter, not fire.

 

[Bazza]

Nice catch Boaz! I kept waiting for a similar event of AA stabbing his wife, the ultimate sacrifice. But I never thought about it being Drogo!

Another spin to amuse you Boaz, Jon attempted to do the same thing as AA and tried to shoot Ygritte with his bow. He missed however, perhaps on purpose? When looking through the corpses he was relieved that his shaft wasn't sticking out her back. He had his chance to be AA! No dragons are awakening on the wall now, Jon screwed it all up!

In all seriousness though I think TPTWP and AA are the same prophecy. Too many similarities I think between Rh'llor and House Targ. However, I get them confused rather easily. What is it that TPTWP is supposed to do that AA does not? I do like the idea that Jon is TPTWP but I agree with Weirwood, all signs point to Dany. But if this is so, what is the whole purpose behind R+L = J ? Him being one of the three heads of the dragon?

 

[Charming Serpent]

Lets also not forget the overall theme of the books: "A Song of Ice and Fire"

Rhaegar insinuates that TPTWP has a song and it is ASoIaF.

Ice is obviously the Starks and Fire is obviously the Targaryens. So if R+L=J then whats the purpose, reasons??

Oh well. I just thought of something.....

A reason or more something could be in the Wall:

They store food and prisoners in the Wall cuz they last longer.

Deserters have been holed into the Wall.

The magic mouth gate or whatever Sam passed through was at the Nightfort and the NW didnt even know about it. They have forgotten soooooo much.

Books and scripts that even the Citadel doesnt have are there.

Not really specific reason why a dragon would be there, but things seem to be found there that others have forgot.

 

[Ursa major]

Ice is obviously the Starks and Fire is obviously the Targaryens. So if R+L=J then whats the purpose, reasons??

You seem to chat with GRRM. He isn't obsessed with global warming, is he?





* Goes off to pray that ASOIAF isn't an ecological allegory. *

 

[Parabola]

Hmmm, just going off what CS said about Starks being Ice, Targs being Fire and the Rhaegar's insinuation about TPTWP having ASoIaF, i've been struck with the notion that perhaps Boaz is correct and TPTWP and AA reborn aren't one and the same, and that mayhaps Jon (being Ice and Fire, yes. I'd say more Ice than Fire personally, but maybe that bit of Fire was put there for the following reason ->) will hook up with his half-sister (being Fire) and produce TPTWP. Maybe the purpose of TPTWP is to make the Targs as great as they were in Old Valyria, beginning with Westeros as we know it, and then the large area to the north which is now free from the Others thanks to mommy (with the Wall having possibly been destroyed), maybe TPWTP will be born, raised by Jon and Dany, take the reins and unite the entire continent under the Targs, and that's why he/she's such a big deal.

I'm probably horribly off target with my reasoning here and have probably forgotten some painfully obvious fact that will no doubt leave me with even less street-cred but can't blame a guy for tryin'!

 

[Boaz]

Jon will hook up with his half-sister

Actually if R+L=J, then Dany is Jon's aunt. Arya and Sansa are his half sisters at the moment... and I've said for a long time that I think he'll hook up with one of them.

Guys, I don't have the answers. I just have observations and misconceptions. Might be AA and TPTWP are the same.

Did anyone ever think that maybe Melisandre is actually Ashara Dayne returned? She's a Targ loyalist... could be leading Stannis to get killed...

But I still wonder if TPTWP/AA defeats and actually kills The Other AND if Jon incorporates the Wildlings into the Gift, then won't the Wall become irrelevant?

And why does The Other not swim around the Wall? Maybe he's allergic to water as much a fire.

 

[Charming Serpent]

I dont think they will end the Other and by that I mean the evil god himself. Most like his armies and another 10k years will roll by and same will happen again.

And no, I believe Ashara is good and dead.

 

[slik_rik]

no i think shes dead boaz.
also i think that maybe TPTWP was simply meant to be a prince that was to fix all the problems the targs caused especially the mad king. That is why rhagar in danys vision said that his son (sorry forgot his name) was TPTWP because reahgar wanted to unscrew everyting daddy (and other ancestors) screwed up and to do this would take more than one generation thus meaning his kids would hav to continue his work.

Adding to this my theory is that jon is wat he is -a *******. He's just one elses ******* -not eddards but lyanna and reahgars- which also makes him an accident. Therfore, he isnt TPTWP. Dany will probably try to fill these shoes as its a good idea/template to follow and mel will prob say that its her who is AA reborn. BTW i reckon that mel is full of s*** and shes stringin stannis along to get to where the action is and to further her cause or religious beliefs etc etc.

Finally, i prophesis that the ending will be bittersweet as jon snow brings down the wall and he and dany work together to kill of the others before jon dies in samwells arms and dany has to lead a ruined ppls yeat again...

 

[TK-421]

But I still wonder if TPTWP/AA defeats and actually kills The Other AND if Jon incorporates the Wildlings into the Gift, then won't the Wall become irrelevant?

I always held that it would be Bran who would lead the Wildlings in the Gift, as the new Warden of the North.

 

[Bazza]

A song of Ice and Fire could also mean R'hllor vs the Other, Dany's dragons vs icy wights, or an ice cube vs a cookfire. Knowing GRRM, he'll probably interweave all of these into it somehow.

 

[slik_rik]

i agree with TK however i also think that there is a reson for everyting GRRM rights in this series so i let u ppls ponder reasons why jon spent so much time with the wildlings....

 

[slik_rik]

adding to that id also like to say that this was said by gambit in the starks as wargs thingo

I'd have to say that I agree with you about Coldhands identity, it is far more likely that Benjen's dead and gone, I enjoy playing the what if game sometimes though, god knows why

In regard to Coldhands and the ability to cross the wall. I thought Melisandre's shadow could not cross the barrier. In other words her magic itself could not breach the wards, her physical person, however, could. Coldhands physically could not pass beyond the wall. I know its a pretty small distinction, and probably has very little relevance to the plot itself, but still, I thought it was kind of weird.

so my thinkin is taht either jon is forced to use the horn of winter or watever its called to destroy the wall (in some ways this could be a biter sweet ending) of they wont destroy it as the others can't cross it!

 

[Gambit]

I think the wall has to come down. The whole battle against the Others would be relatively weak villians if it remains standing as an impregnable barrier to their evil.

I like some of the stuff said about Melisandre bringing it down with some ill advised magic.

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

As someone in this forum once said....and I will have to paraphrase

You dont create a hundred foot high wall, guarded by magic as the last shield against the Others and create a magical horn that is the only thing capable of destroying said wall and not blow the damn thing at some point in your story.

 

[Charming Serpent]

Would that be considered Ockhams Razor or another kind of thinking?? I can't remember.

U know the the one : The simplest answer is often the answer etc etc ...